How To Get Through The Holidays- Dr. Tia White

Hi everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Enduring the Badge Podcast. I'm host Jerry Dean Lund, and I don't want you to miss an upcoming episode, so please hit that subscribe button. And while your phone's out, please do me a favor and give us a review on iTunes or our Apple Podcast. It says, Hey, this podcast has a great message and we should send it out to more people.

So please take that 30 seconds to a minute to do that review and just maybe by doing that, it'll push this up into someone's podcast feed that really needs this message. Hi everyone. Before we jump into this next episode. I want to talk to you about your relationships. Are they working for you? Are they not working for you?

And they were because now it's the holidays and now it brings in a lot of stress, a lot of stress about sharing time with families, stress of money, stress of being at parties that maybe you do or don't want to go to, an expectations that are met or unmet. You have the end of the year is wrapping up and it's, and it's not too late to have the best relationship you can have, and I can help you avoid some stumbling blocks before the end of the year by just a 15 minute discovery call with me.

You can also reach out to me for some additional advice at Jerry Fire and Fuel, or Enduring the Badge podcast, or at our website, enduring the badge podcast.com, where you can leave me a voicemail there. Please feel free to reach out to me because I want you to have the best relationship possible. Not only this year as it ends, but moving into the next year.

My very special guest today is Dr. Tia White. She is amazing with first responders, and today we're gonna talk about how to get through the holidays. She knows some of the stumbling box and pitfalls that we have as first responders, and she has some great advice on how to overcome them, and you're going to want to listen because it's gonna help make your holidays better for you and better for your family.

She's also gonna talk about some ways that if you're feeling down through them, how to get out of that cycle and get into a better cycle of feeling better. Now let's jump right into the episode. How you doing Tia? Hi Jerry. Can I just tell you, I just love. And I appreciate, I am so glad to be talking to you.

It's like always the, the light of my day when I get to talk to you for a while. So thank you. Thank you. Goes both ways. It's, it's great to have somebody that you can just genuinely converse with. Mm-hmm. . It is, isn't it really? It just changes your whole mood. It does. It Does Tia introduce the audience a little bit about yourself and kind of your background?

Yeah, so I'm a social worker by education and, uh, profession worked in all the populations, right, like child welfare and, um, worked in, uh, crisis work for a long time and because of what I did in the community and crisis work and in the emergency room, I worked with first responders a lot and I gained a huge, huge, huge appreciation.

For the work that they did. Uh, and, and the work that we did together. I'm huge into collaboration. And so being able to work with them, with the officers and with the fire and, and medics right. And, and the dispatchers all the time, uh, to help the community stay safe and, and, and be healthy or whatever it is that we were working on together.

I just very much appreciated them. And so about five years ago, I turned my, um, I got a little burned out. It's hard. Community crisis work is difficult, right? . Um, but I still love the public safety that I was working with individuals. And, and so about five years ago, I turned, uh, my specialty towards working with just public safety.

And so that is what my expertise has been in. And, and even so to the point that I went back and got my doctorate degree. Yeah. Um, and built a whole mental health assessment, which I will not bore people with, um, but for public safety because, uh, of the need that is there. And I just, I just. I love, I love working with public safety across the board, and I feel like I have that, um, ability to connect with them because of the work I've done in the community right alongside with them.

So I'm actually gonna dive into that assessment just a tiny bit. Yeah. Why, I mean, this seems to be probably a pretty obvious question, but I want you to explain it. Why did you feel like you saw a need for that type for an assessment? So I actually owe this whole thing to a, a, he's retired captain of a police department, and he, um, now works for the VAL program, which is a mil, uh, government non-profit, or they're associated with the government.

It's a non-profit that teaches suicide prevention to public safety. Um, anyways, he, I, I was calling around a department, so I said, I just wanna work with the, the public safety guys. And I, and I say public safety a lot, but it's, you know, people usually think of that as first responders, right. But it's just, it's just easier.

It's hard for me to explain it all. So public safety. Um, and I was calling around, you know, calling to my friends and saying, Hey, who, who's part of your wellness program? Like, who's peer support? And I don't know, um, how much of your listeners know what peer support is, right? But that's that internal support system that the departments have for each other.

And, uh, and, and so I got ahold of this captain. I said, look, how can I help? I want to work with you guys. I have this great, I have trauma knowledge. I can, I have, you know, frontline experience. How can I work with you? And he says, we would love help, but we don't even know where we are. That's what he said.

He said, we don't even know where we are. And I said, oh, well that's interesting. So we got together and brainstormed this, uh, it's a survey, it's an assessment of types, an organizational department assessment. And, um, anyway, it just kind of grew from there. And they were the, their department was the first one for me to try it with and pilot it.

And then, uh, I went and got it academically validated so that it's good round. Nice. And now And, and now, yeah. And so now because of the exposure experience that I have, I've actually been able to build mental health assessments, individual assessments. So the organizational survey is where I started. And, and I still do that with departments that want that.

And then individual mental health assessments to help, uh, the public safety, uh, off, you know, individual, know where they're at, where they're starting from, and then work with their therapist and see their progress and that tangible, right? Like, where are they at, where are they headed? You know? Yeah. We don't always know that we're doing better.

Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Do you think we always know that we're doing bad? Yes. All the time. Yeah. We all know. We all know, right? I think it's hard. Here's the thing, our brain is wired to recognize threats and public safety is especially wired for that. So their natural instinct is, is just like all of us, we're more prone to be the negative because the negative is the threat, right?

Yeah. Um, you know, that's how our brain thinks. Very, you know, cave Manish, that's what I call it, you know, a little cave manish. But, but then you get into public safety and, and first responder world and, and their, your training is to recognize the threats in the environment, right? Right. Right. Mm-hmm. . So you have to, you, you fight that, you fight that all the time because you're always aware of, what am I doing wrong?

I mean, think about it, you know, when you're, when you're done, uh, uh, you know, you're done with your scene or your, your situation, right? You're off scene and. Or your call, you know, for you guys, you go back and you do a hot wash or you do, you know, some kind of debrief. Right? And, um, the debriefs are typically operational.

Right? Right, right. Well, we should have used this equipment. Oh, we didn't stock this one. Right. You know, or, or hey, you know, with the officers, you should have called sergeant. I mean, there's all these different things, but it's pretty operational, you know, and it's, it's because, and that's just reinforcing how much we have to see what we're doing wrong.

So it becomes very habitual and very natural. Uh, they play together. Yeah. So to find the positive and to see the positive takes a lot of work. Um, you have to fight that. You have to say, oh wait. You know, yeah, we, we could have done this better. Um, and on the same token, look at this awesome thing that we did do really, really well.

Right? And, uh, And so, yeah, I think it's just easier. It's just, it's more natural for us. Plus our brain really loves the path of least resistance, right? Yeah. Which is why we all fall back into old habits, because that's easy, , right? That's the whole, yeah. Yeah. That's the easy thing to do. And so when we create new habits, we create new pathways in our mind and all these things, but it's, but it's, it's harder.

And so the brain is like, this is too, this is a lot of work. I'm just gonna go back to what I know, right? Yeah. Just gonna sit back on my couch. . I, I think, I mean a couple things, like when I, I, right. I'm always doing a. Threat matrix, you know, assessment, I'll call it whether I'm home, out and about driving, like it's always running through my head and it's super tough to like shut down and, and acknowledge it.

Mm-hmm. , you know, to acknowledge that I'm in a safe place and that I don't really need to run that day much, but I always do. And it's just like getting, going back to like trying to run that self assessment on yourself, like to find out what's, what's going on. I think the other thing is in the first responder world, I find is we expect others to be perfect and ourselves even to be perfect on every call and everything we do.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I think that, um, this is my take. I mean, you didn't ask but I'm gonna give it to you anyway. Yeah. Cause that's what I do. Right? I just like to my opinions about stuff, but this is what I think. I think that. In all the time. So I mean, as a, you know, a specialist, you know, the last five years, but really with public safety for 20 years I've been working with them, right.

On different things. The one thing I know without a doubt, like there's no question, and I will argue anybody that comes to me about this, but I know that public safety, okay, almost all of them, because you know, there's always the one, right? The work guy or Dell, that you're like, why are you here? I don't know why you're here.

Right? But everybody else, 99.999, right? Yeah. Um, they get into public safety to serve, to serve the communities, and to do, and to give back. There's this altruism in them and this desire to do the best for these people that they just have this innate love for. I mean, when you guys sign, You are literally signing up to sacrifice your life and even relationships.

And, and, and that's not, you know, that's not part of your oath. Right. . Right, right, right. But, but part of your oath is to protect and to work with and serve and, and, and power and, and support, you know? Yeah. I mean, how many stories are there about, you know, odd calls that, you know, fire medics go to? Right.

Yeah. And it's, and it's a lonely grandma or grandpa that just needs some help. I think you and I were talking about a, a cute gentleman that needed light bulb changed. Yeah. You know, or something like that. , you know, but, but you guys, you guys are there and you, you wanna do your best for those people, so then why wouldn't you expect that from yourself?

And so it is a lot easier to get down on yourself when you're not meeting an expectation that you have. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So that, that probably plays out into our families not meeting their expectations as well. Oh yeah. I mean, it's, it's really funny because as I, uh, I have a good, good friend.

They're basically like brother and sister to me, right? That he's fire medic 28 years or something, and she's the spouse and all the kids and they've watched him all grow up and all the things, right? And, and it is, it's really interesting to me because I understand the culture, right? That how his, his expectations from work and, and, um, the habits and rituals almost that you guys have to make sure you're safe, right?

Transferring to the family life. Sure. And it's frustrating because my, you know, like my friends, like, I can't do what you're wanting to do all the time. Like, this is a family. We got kids, we live here, you know, the chaos of life. Like, we can't do that kinda routine, you know? And so it's been interesting to see how they, you know, work through that and that communication.

But that's what it takes, right. Is a lot of, you know, you alluded to that. You have to be aware and acknowledge, oh wait. Like, I don't need to be here in my head. Yeah. You know, I am safe and, and that's tricky. That's really hard. You know, so it always goes back to what that captain told me. We don't even know where we are.

Right, right. So if, if you can't recognize where you are with it, then you won't be able to acknowledge it and then court with it. Right. Yeah. So moving in towards the holidays, I mean, we're gonna see more of people one with, I mean, I dunno if you looked at the news lately, but there's been a lot of shootings, including today when we're recording.

There was one, you know, uh, today or last night, another mass shooting and stuff. So I think that's gonna be hard or moving into the holidays with all that to try to feel. You know, out being out and about and even, even being at home. So I feel like that's gonna be a little bit more outta stress to people.

Um, I think just the population in general is gonna be more stressed out by seeing these things. And I hate to be the bear of bad news, but that's probably not gonna be the last one through the holidays. Cuz these things breed each other for some weird reason. But how can we do, that's a good way to put it.

They breed each other. Yeah. . Yeah. What are some ways that maybe we can do some self-assessment on ourselves?

You know, I've thought a lot about this because, um, in working with military as well, right? That, um, the holidays are hard and, and I was working with a group of, uh, military, former military and, and some active still. But that was the question, like, how do we get through the holidays? How do we get through this?

And this is military perspective is like, The stuff that they're bringing home with them from being, you know, gone for two years and, you know, war and, and, and that kinda stuff. And then trying to adapt to regular life. Right? Um, public safety world, it's you, you leave from shift and you go home and you're bringing it home, but it's a little, just a different dynamic, right?

But it's the same thing. You're bringing something with you and it follows you no matter where you are, right? So it doesn't matter what city you're in or what family members you're with, it's, it's in you, it's part of your experience. And so it follows you. But the thing that kept coming up is, is um, something that is commonly used to help people with anxiety and, and, um, and that is, is traditions, right?

So our brain, I always give this example, so I'm sorry Jerry, you've heard this before and you get to hear it again. It's okay. It's a good, it's a good example, right? Is that most of us actually have a routine when we take a shower. . So you get in the shower and even like how you prepare for the shower, you have a routine, right?

Yeah, that's true. So like, is your dirty, is your dirty laundry bucket by the shower? You know, you take off, you stripped down, and then you hop in. Or is it you just throw it on the bed and walk in? Or, or maybe you're not fortunate, you know, maybe you, you have a, a. You know, bathroom, what's across the hall and you strip down and run naked as fast as you can across the hall , I dunno.

But you know, everybody's got, everyone's got some kind of routine and they get in the shower and you shave, you wash your face, wash your hair, you wash your body, whatever it is, you've got some kind of routine. And often if you ask people, right, someday I'll do some kind of random pull. Cause I think it's kind of funny, but there are a lot of people, most, a lot of people, I couldn't even guess how many, but a lot that really find a lot of comfort.

It's good thinking time and feel a lot of calm in a shower or a bath. Right? Right. Um, and in crisis work, uh, when individuals come in, in crisis or we are doing that, that's something that we would say, Hey, go take a hot bath, right? Yeah, go take a hot shower. Because there is this calming in the water.

There's calming, but it's this pace and part of it is believed to be because of the routine. So in people with anxiety, the brain loves routine because it helps it know what's coming next. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And what, and so to your point with this world that is feeling so unsure, um, a lot of my, I've been working with, talking to a lot of my therapist friends lately, and they're seeing more and more people that are struggling with their mental health and wellness.

And as a professor, my students, um, have been struggling more and more over the last couple semesters with their own mental health. And, and so it's like, okay, how do we help the mind stay calm? But because they're, they're thinking about this world, the shootings, right? Yeah. Well, I can't even go to the grocery store.

I can't go, I don't know what's gonna happen. And especially public safety, because you're really hypervigilant and then you're really like even more, right? Yeah. You're like, cause you're, this can happen anywhere. Anywhere you live. . Um, and, uh, and now like the college students, I have a college-aged son. And when the Colorado stabbings, right, that just happened mm-hmm.

um, they're leaving in droves. Par kids are panicked. They're like, this happened in their house. They were asleep. You know, like they don't know who it was. Like it's a panic. Anyway, so it comes down to what can we do to help our brain know what to expect? Yeah. What is within our, I will get to clinical, right?

This isn't like a therapy session, but what is in our range of control? What can we do? And so you reflect, like, reflect, I mean, what, what does your family do? What do you do that is in this time of year, something that gives you a pleasure? And maybe it's a very simple thing. Um, I'll tell you, when I was a kid, We had, so my parents divorced when I was about eight.

So, but the first eight years of my life, um, well, about seven, you know, were relatively stable, right? Yeah. And, um, we thoroughly enjoyed Christmas because of one thing. And it's not the presents, believe it or not, it wasn't the presents or the decorating. Do you know what it was? It was that it was the only time of year my mom bought Captain Crunch cereal.

yes.  and, no, of course, right? So we would put eggnog in our Captain Crunch cereal, and to this day as a, you know, 40 plus woman, right? Like, I still have the fondest memories of Captain Crunch cereal. I mean, how, how simple can it get? It can't get any more simple than that, right? Yeah. So like, And I didn't, I mean, I tried to get my boys into it.

They're just like, that's weird, mom. I'm like, just try it. Yeah, right. It's very tasty. Okay. That's my goal to everyone. Go try Cafe Crunch with eggnog. . But, but it's simple, right? It doesn't have to be complex. And I think that, you know, when we talk about perfectionism, we think that traditions and things that help us feel good have to be this big complex thing, right?

Um, and especially public safety. Well, it's not, we tend to be a little extreme, right? So, right. Yeah. So it's not, yo, you know, yoga in the living room's not good enough. We've gotta go do goat yoga. So we gotta go drive an hour, go do some goat yoga cuz that's cool, and then, and then go home. And so we're like, well I don't have three hours to do yoga.

Oh, come on. No one said it had to be three hours. Right. You can do it in the living room for, you know, so, so, but what do we do? How simple is it? Are we aware? What are we doing in our lives to help us feel that safety and security and help us feel good? I mean, you know, it's this great conversation because before we were talking.

Are we more prone to that negative way of thinking? Right. Right. Well if we know that which we are, cuz that's human nature, unfortunately, um, then we have to make a conscious choice to say what are, what do we do? Is it Captain Country cereal? Right. Or is it uh, I have a, a friend that does their family every year.

I mean, it's a pretty big deal for them, but they have a theme every Christmas. Oh yeah. And they'll play like a game and like their presents even are very much focused around, uh, how they hand their presents out at Christmas, around this theme for the, the year. You know, like one year it was Jeopardy, you know, I don't know, just whatever fun theme like that.

I mean that's a little much for me and my family cuz I'm a little bit lazy. But, um, you know, , I guess a lot of work, but that sounds really cool. Right. But we have a very simple tradition in our family that the kids, uh, pick out an ornament every single. Um, and, and an ornament that reflects some kind of something for them.

Right. So Right. When my oldest boy, well, and my youngest, I guess this year will be his, that, you know, they got their licenses so they got a little ornament that had to do with driving or something. Right. And, you know, if they played tennis that year or if they played sports or if they graduated Right. It didn't matter what it was.

And honestly, when they were little, it was like, what cartoon did they like? So we have like Ninja Turtle, right? At Elmo Yeah. Yeah. On our Christmas tree. . But, but it's that, it's that one, it's that little thing Right. That helps us and helps the kids. Helps our family connect and know what to expect. I don't know what is gonna happen in the world around me.

Right? Right. Like, hey everyone, have you lost that loving feeling because life has you so stressed out and you're just being moms and dads now and just running around like crazy and the passion in your relationship is gone and you don't make it a priority anymore? Well, let me help you with that. I offer a free 15 minute discovery call that you can book on during the badge website, or you can just reach out to me on anyone social media platforms, and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

Traffic is crazy and, and you know, where we live, it's totally blocked up all the time. Drives me crazy. Right? Me too. Me too. And then the with, yeah, with the news and, and all these things that are so unsure in our world around us. And, um, so what can we depend on? And, and, and here's the other kicker. So it's one thing to say, yes, we do this right, but.

Are we actually doing something? Are we actually taking the steps to do it? Right. So I have to be the the mom and say, everyone, we are going ornament shopping, everyone get on your phones and go to Amazon and find your ornament for the year. And I want, I want the ornament you want by Friday. Right, ? Yeah.

Right. Like it had, it's a little bit of work, but it's still, so we can't, it's not enough to just say, yes, I acknowledge that these, you know, captain Crunches are thing. You actually have to go to the store to get the Captain Crunch. Right. Yeah. I mean, you might be able to get on Amazon or some delivery service these days.

I have. That's true. See, That is positive thinking right there. Yeah.  and very resourceful . So, yeah. So what about those that are like visiting family or having family visit them and uh, or going to events and they're like, I, I just don't want to go. Like, I don't, I don't enjoy spending time with so and so, or they're coming here type of thing.

How, how do you prepare yourself or can you prepare yourself for those type of things? So this is a very, that's a good question. I know I get that a lot, but really is it, it's a good, uh, you have to be very honest with yourself. This is one of those things that you have to be honest with yourself, right?

You have to ask yourself like, why don't I wanna go? Right. Like, is my in public safety especially, typically we don't wanna socialize. Right? Right. We just don't wanna socialize anyways. So yeah. Um, there's that, but. We have to say, why don't I really wanna go? Like, would it really be so bad if I showed up?

Right? Like, am I closing my mind off to that experience or am can I keep my mind open and go and maybe something good will come of it? You know? So, but, but you have to be honest with yourself. Like, am I avoiding something? Am I just, I just, I don't have the energy. Like maybe I'm just tired, right? Yeah. Um, I'm feeling in public safety world especially, there's a lot of trauma reactivity, right?

Is what I call it. So your brain is really overwhelmed. You've got a lot of stuff stuck in there. So you're having a lot of, you know, you'll have the nightmares and you'll have people usually associate with like ptsd, but that's a diagnosis. So we don't go there. So we just say, your body and your mind are reacting to trauma and things that are kind of stuck in there, right?

Um, but, but you can, what you can do is say there's, it doesn't have to be black and white. That is how public safety think black, white, right? Yeah. Safe, not safe. Right. I'm either facing the door or my back is too late, which means I can't enjoy anything after that. Right? Like that's right. That black and white thinking.

So then we say, okay, there is an in between. So for example, I don't necessarily want to go to my mom's house because my sister will be there, she's obnoxious. I'm speaking to my brother and how he feels about me all the time. So, you know, it's safe. We're good  and she's probably gonna tell me I need to do something with myself and tell me to shave my beard and you know, whatever.

Right? Like, so I don't wanna deal with that, but I think I can give an hour. So set a healthy boundary, right? Health. I can do this for an hour. I can, I can last 30 minutes. Or maybe that's even like, ah, 30 minutes, right? Okay. Well then how about you go say hi to everybody. Give yourself a 20 minute time limit to check it, right?

Yeah. And then at 20 minutes, pull yourself out and say, okay, where am I at? Can I stick it out from their five or 10 minutes? Like, give yourself some boundaries and goals to aim for, right? Because that's part of that brain knowing what to expect. It's very overwhelming when you're thinking about a public safety.

It's hard to socialize anyway, right? Yeah. But, but then you go to the family's house that you're not, you're not in your comfort zone, right? You're in a bed you don't really know, or it smells funny or whatever. There's obnoxious kids and there's baby screaming when you're not used to that or whatever the case might be.

And so it's all very unsure. It's very, it feels very unsafe in a way, even though logically you might know you are, but your mind is like, ah, I don't know this, I don't feel comfortable. I don't feel safe. So give yourself something to feel safe about. I have an hour in me, I have 20 minutes in me, right?

Like, I can do this. I'll, and, or maybe at mom's house or, uh, for example, my husband's, uh, grandma's house has the main floor where most people hang out. And then there's this awesome basement. And so when I, when I was in my prime of crisis work, and it was a lot for me to be up socializing with everybody, like I would just go into the basement and socialize with the one or two people that were down there, right?

Yeah. So like, you find, find a place within that that feels safe, right? Yeah. And if it's in the corner and you're facing the door, fine. You know, if that's what you need. But be open to con conversation, right? Like, and here's the beauty too. I think public safety tends to want to know all the answers. I want to know what to say and, and, and how to say it.

And I want to, cuz I hear this all the time in peer support training, , how do I say what are the right things? And it's like, I'll tell you I can't right now. This is your number one go-to. You don't have to say anything. You can ask one question to somebody about their life and they will typically just go on about it.

Cuz people love to talk about themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Be a good listen, right? Yeah, that's right. So, so listen, ask a question or two and, and give yourself a time limit so, you know, how do you prepare yourself? Right? Well, okay, I'm gonna give myself, I'm gonna open to the experience. That's number one, right? I need to be open to the experience, whatever it is, I need to recognize that I'm tired or I'm drained or whatever it is.

Maybe I just don't wanna talk to my sister. Okay? But then give yourself a boundary so I, I can sit in the main room with everybody for 10 minutes, right? And then you'll find a quiet space for a few minutes because, and that's okay. Regroup, then go back out for 10 minutes. I mean, whatever it is, give yourself some kind of routine, something to expect, something to feel safe with, right?

And even, I know, come on, every, there are people that will be lying if this is the very true thing. And how many couples have like the code word. That we're done , like, oh, I've got that thing right. Sorry. Mine's probably, mine's probably a look . Yeah, that's right. See, but that's something that your, that your wife, you know, your, your wife can plan on.

She knows what to expect with that look. Right. Um, yeah. My, you know, my husband's the same way. I give him a look and, and usually there's a few words like, I've gotta get back, you know, or something like that. And people know that I'm busy and have a lot going on, and so they're usually respectful of that.

But, but he also knows I have a limit. Like, I just can't, I just, it's very exhausting for me to be in huge groups for a long time. And so, uh, especially like that. So I have a limit. I get to that point where I'm like, I can't push myself anymore. This is a good time for me to bow out and, and I just excuse myself, you know?

Yeah. And, and people are understanding. You don't need to make a big scene out of it like a. Draw a queen, like, ah, you know, you guys are so awful. You know, you just like, excuse me, you know, I'm tired and I work shifts and I just need to go home and have some peace and quiet and, and just be honest about it.

Right? Most people understand, you know? Yeah. So find the space, create yourself some safety boundaries. Right? And uh, and, and then, you know, the other thing too is, um, the holidays tend to, I just had someone say this to me yesterday, right? Is how is it that I can deal with this one situation that I deal with all the time, all year long?

And then the holidays come and it's almost like it's worse, even though it's the same situation. And it didn't change. From October to Thanksgiving, nothing changed. Um, but the, and I said, you know, we just kind of talked about it and, and we kind of both agreed that the holidays like the expectation, the energy and the air.

Right. The energy. But, but I mean, just listen to the Christmas music, right. Or the holiday music and it's about families and friends and gathering. Right? Right. Um, and so just the energy, the vibe, I'm the big vibe person, right? So the vibe in the air is this get together thing. And so when you're struggling with, with that, when you're struggling with friendships or you're struggling with family, which isn't uncommon, and, you know, public safety, our relationships do, they struggle because of what we do as a professional, right?

Um, the holidays get, it feels worse. And so it can actually be really triggering, you know, it can be really triggering to a lot of people. And, but again, that's where. Recognizing. Acknowledging how your body is responding, how your mind is responding to what is being talked about, right. Or what is being planned.

And then creating that, being open to creating a safe space for yourself within that. Right. So that you're not, your brain knows what to expect. So think of the shower. Okay. I feel good. One of the reasons that people enjoy the shower is that routine because they know what to expect. So it's the same thing and it's just some quiet time.

Yeah. Yes. Generally. Generally. There's probably a lot of moms out. Theres like, there's no quiet time ever like type of thing. I know the kids, you know, under the door, right? With the little ones, right. . Yeah. Yeah. But, and but that's the thing. Yeah. So I'm hearing like a lot of like self assessment. Mm-hmm.

like taking a self assessment. Yeah. Do you find that first responders don't really want to self assess? I mean, I, cause I'm, I'm like, I'm like self, they'll assess, assess they for like emergencies or anything like that or what's gonna happen or be prepared for all those things. Like back to Right. The negative thing, but like some inner self-reflection or, or self-assessment.

Mm-hmm. , um, maybe even moving through the holidays would be good. Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you this question in response to that, right. How much of your training was to self-assess, um, your emotional state and, uh, your mind state and your personal relationship state while you're dealing with the medical emergency or the fire emergency?

Uh, probably, if this is gonna sound really high, 1%. Mm. Yeah. See. So if, if what we're saying is based on the training of the profession, your brain becomes very habitual, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And if you are, and, and there is some training, uh, breathing, right? Yeah. Lots of breathing. Make sure you breathe before you do this, right?

So think back to the first time you had to stick somebody, right. Or Yeah. Or run into the danger, right? Most of public safety are on board without a hundred percent, but you gotta take a breath or breathe, right? Right. So you're taught to breathe . You're taught to breathe. Yeah. But you're taught to breathe so you can do the job.

You're not taught to breathe, to assess your, and calm your, your personal relationships. Now, does that make sense, ? Yeah. Yeah, it does to me. Cause I've been doing some breath work over the last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So you're, you're self assessing is hard. And here's the other thing with public safety is, um, The state of mind that, uh, typically public safety professionals are in, are in this hypervigilant state or hypervigilant, meaning that's where a personality comes in, right?

So like you're either really hypervigilant all the time and alert and, and you know, black and white, or you're kind of shut off, not kind of, you are, you're shut off, you're numb, right? Because it's just your brain is overwhelmed. So personality comes into that. So you're in one of those black and white zones.

And, um, and, and when you're in those zones, those are survival. So you're not processing any emotion. So I, I promise I have a point, right? So you're not processing any emotion. You're not thinking, I'm angry, I'm sad. No, you're just shut off. Or you're just in alert mode, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So now fast forward, it's the holidays.

We're trying to self-assess where are we at so that we can go to grandma's house or mom's house, or brother and sister's house or aunt's house, right? Or whatever the case might be. And, um, all of a sudden I have to calm my brain down and actually think about how I'm feeling and how it's going to affect my relationship.

Uh, and then all these other emotions come in and I'm like, uh oh, that is very uncomfortable. I do not like feeling that it feels very foreign, right? So capable. Yes. Uh, always, always capable, but it's scary to feel things, and it's scary to really be honest and acknowledge that you may not be doing as well as you think you are.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? So, Yeah, that's being that open to that experience. The, the, the trauma, the healing. I, I've been very, very privileged. Um, very, very privileged. I can't even tell you enough how it's a very sacred space for me, uh, to be part of many healing journeys, um, with public safety, right? And the trauma work that I've done with them.

And, um, but the number one step is them being willing to, to face that, to be, just be willing. That's all they have to do is be willing, right, to be willing to be open to that experience and that emotion. So your training is not to, uh, analyze your relationships and, and to figure out how to cope with things that way.

It's, it's how to get into the, the burning building and how, why a fire is what it is, how to put it out, right, and to make sure that people are safe. If you're, you know, PD or your police, right, then it's just safe. If it's dispatch, it's how to get the information. That you need to get out, right? Like that's your training.

And so that's where your comfort zone is. So when you start, you have to come out of these survival states and you have to start feeling things again. It can get very overwhelming. And that's where you have to say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself a boundary 20 minutes, right? I can handle it for 20 minutes.

I can give myself an hour, but I'm willing to experience that. I'm willing to try people that shut it off, they're the ones that can't connect. Because I think there's this misconception in public safety one day, Jerry, I promise you, one day I'm going to prove this. Yeah. One, one day I'm gonna give this speech about the myth of compartmentalization.

I know I'm, I'm chopping somebody's hide right now because of public exam. Like, oh, we have to compartmentalize, right? Yeah. But as far as emotions go in the brain, you don't get to say brain, I only want you to feel happiness. . That's not how it works. And so when you shut off those emotions to do your survival for the job and then your habits, right, you shut off emotion completely.

So you don't get to say, at home I feel happy and at at work. I don't like, it doesn't work like that. You're either shutting it off or you're feeling it, and it doesn't matter where you are, your brain doesn't care, right? So these holiday things, the traditions, the triggers, right? The stress, even the anticipation to your point, right?

Like just driving, going, oh my gosh, and then, wait, I don't need to do that. Like in those three seconds that you were just analyzing yourself, how many emotions did you experience? Probably a lot. Yeah. , right? Like this, like rainbow of, of emotions. And, and, but you had to be willing to experience those so that you could take that next step and, and that's a scary place to.

Yeah, I think you're right. Like the holidays amplify things even throughout like the year, you may not be feeling like you wanna socialize or you mm-hmm.  want to do different things or go to family events or whatever. More self isolation. But the holiday times come around  and that's not really gonna fly as Right.

As, as a family or in relationships. Like, your mom still wants to see you, your, your parents still wanna see you, you know, friends and family wanna see you around the holiday times and so you're feel more Yeah. Committed to, to doing it. Mm-hmm. , which also would increase someone's anxiety to feel like, oh, I gotta do this cuz I don't wanna let somebody down.

Mm-hmm. , ah, see, and, and that's that servicing brain, like it's about other people, right? Yeah. But yeah, we, public safety, we often forget about, Having to take care of ourselves so that we can be our best self for those other people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, so I was just thinking, I, I'm a very visual thinker, so, you know, you start talking and I create these images in my mind, you old stories, but, you know, I think about, um, when I was a kid and we went to my grandparents, uh, my aunt and uncles, you know, some family member's house, and, um, there would always be, you know, like the relative or something that was just kind of out with the kids, right?

Yeah. Like playing with the kids. Yeah. And so that's what I was thinking is, is look at the way that is authentic to you, that you can still connect, but that won't completely overwhelm you. Right? Yeah. How can you do that? And, and there's no way for me to tell you that's this is how you do it, because everyone's family's unique, right?

Um, and maybe you are that adults because it's so overwhelming, right? And so you're connecting with the kids, but then, yeah, this is the big key is, is you have to give yourself permission. So we expect ourselves, like, what is it that I expect? Well, I expect to go to my mom's house because everybody wants that from me, right?

And I don't wanna let 'em down. So I expect it, and then I'm gonna have the best conversation with everybody. And, and everyone is, it's gonna be a great world, right? And, and, and then we get this little black and white thinking again. And so then when you don't have that experience, you get overwhelmed and flooded and, and, uh, you know, maybe you drink too much or you don't drink, and everybody's wondering why or whatever the kid, you know, maybe eat too much.

I mean, who knows? You know, maybe you were just coming off a graveyard shift and you're exhausted. You know? I mean, I did that a lot. I, I, when I worked in the hospital, I, I would. Do that a lot. And my husband will be like, why are you even here? You're falling asleep on the couch. I'm like, well, I'm here. So what do you want?

You know, like, I dunno, but, um, but what is your expectation from yourself? And give yourself permission. So are you gonna be the cool uncle Jerry that's out with the kids? Because you happen to really like kids because you don't have to filter through the crap. They'll just tell you, you know, , I'll go dairy.

You look like crap, , you know that question. Cause kids are honest and they're less exhausting in the honesty factor. Right. But yeah. And, and are you okay with that? Or are you gonna keep your expectation that you have to be in with the adults and, and they're expecting this stuff of you? I mean, you have to give yourself permission, right?

I, I had this wise professor, um, in my undergrad who said, um, challenge all authority, especially your own. Um, and I'm sure the chiefs out there are like, no, we do not challenge this. But the premise is the same. You know, I mean, I'll. Holidays out of it. But just simple. Like some people believe that if somebody's coming over to their house, their house needs to be spot pic and spa.

Right. Very clean. Yeah. Because people are coming over and, and you think, well, wait a second. Who said that? Who told me that that's the case? Like, who said I had to have my house cleaned because someone was coming over to my house to see me? Right. . Right, right. And you start asking yourself, who said that I had to do that?

And then you start realizing, wait a second, there's really no rule here. This is just some expectation I've had for myself. Right. Yeah. So the same with holidays. I, I have this expectation to have this great thing, but really there's no rule. And most of 'em are just happy that I'm here and I need to give myself permission to be okay with that.

You know? And I need to be okay with leaving after an hour and, and going home. We give myself permission to have that healthy boundary. Right. To have that space, that permission is the key because we give ourselves a break. Right. Yeah. So you, you know, Jerry, you talked about doing breath work, right? Yeah.

That's hard. It's been, it's been an interesting journey actually. I, I just did, I did a challenge thing and, um, I, I didn't think I would like it as much as I did, to be quite honest. Like, and it's short, like a lot of the breath work that I did was not more than 20 minutes. A lot of it was 10 minutes. You know, it was just a, I think everybody will get something different out of it.

Mm-hmm. , you know, it just, it put me in a state towards the end of like, oh, I could just, you know, meditate if I wanted for a few minutes or just relax or just tune into my body how it feels or. When these things come up in public, I can breathe these different ways to kind of deregulate myself or I can up-regulate myself through my breathing.

Yeah. So when you, before you started that challenge, right? The breathing challenges? Yeah. What was the, the narrative, like, what was the thoughts in your mind to, to before you started? Like, how did you, how did you jump into that? Cause that's unusual. Yeah. Yeah. I, well, right. I'm, I'm a big proponent of like mindfulness and self-help and self whatever, trying to always be better, right?

Trying to explore these different ways and, you know, through coaching and stuff like that, I don't really like recommending people to do something that I haven't done myself. So I wanna see if it worked and how it worked for me before I recommended it to, to anyone else. And I actually do highly recommend it.

And it was, especially if you're in the medical field mm-hmm. , like, your body's gonna fill some things. You've gone on patients or you've like worked in the hospital and they're, you know, they're hyperventilating doing these things. Yeah. Have you done it before? Have you tried it to see what it feels like?

Because if you have, then you are actually gonna be able to share that experience of how to like, bring them down or bring them up. So you're, so it's interesting because of your professional choice, right? Is to serve others and your motivation in doing this is to continue to serve others, right? Yeah. But really what I heard you say, I mean, I'm just gonna put words in your mouth.

I know you're good, , but what I heard you say is that you gave yourself permission to do this. Yeah. Even if the motivation was to recommend it to other people, right? Yeah. Because had I have just come in, let's say, you know, a year ago, right? And I just said, Jerry, do the breath work. Breath work right now.

Yeah. Yeah. What would you have done? And I'd be like, I don't understand . Now. You're like, why? Like, why? Because as, as service oriented, as public safety, I were also very defiant . Right. So like, why, why are you telling me to do that? Right. So, right. Um, but you gave yourself permission. You opened that door and then you, you walked into it willing to learn something, right?

Right. To be open to the experience and look at what you just said and that what, one minute you just talked about how much you've actually learned and what an interesting experience spent. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it, I'm gonna continue to do it cuz I definitely enjoyed it and it's easy and it's quick. Yeah.

Yeah. Like it's, and it, it's just the hard thing, you know, for anybody, right. Mom's, dad's with everybody is just like to find that kind of like space right. Where you can do it and feel comfortable about doing it. Yeah. So I'm gonna throw this out there, this wild car to you a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. This curve ball, so to speak.

So somebody's listening to this whole thing and they're like, you know what, I'm, I'm just drained. I'm self isolating. And, uh, yeah. None of this is, this is, is good for me. And the reason why I say this is a little bit. . I once found myself in a similar situation around the holiday times where I did end up, you know, thinking about taking my own life because of a lot of outside circumstances that were happening in my life.

So to find myself in that point, like, what if I'm listening to this and I'm like, that's where I'm at. Well, and and it's a real thing. I mean, you know, if you're statistic junkie, you know, I like to throw numbers out there, but in the research I've done in Utah, uh, public safety, I mean 28%, right? Yeah. Are in some suicidal ideation state, 28%.

And I don't think people realize it's that. That high. Right. And it's actually, it's almost doubled from three years ago when I first started working with like in the data, you know, piece of it. It was like 15% and now it's 28. You know, I'm hoping it'll improve. But anyway, so the point is a very real thing, right?

This is a very real thing. Yeah. Understanding that the brain, where the brain is in that state of mind is a very overwhelmed brain. It's a very flooded brain, right? And it's craving some relief from this flood that is in it, right? Like this stuckness and this go and all this fog and I can't think, right?

Cuz it's just trying to survive. And so it thinks ending my life is the way to do it, right? Because it's the only thing that, that, that makes any sense in the state of mind. I'm in, um, uh, to, to just end this heaviness that I have right now. Right? Um, I mean, you know, please correct me if I'm wrong, but in working with hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of suicidal individuals, um, Now over and over again.

That's what it comes down to. Very overwhelmed brain, very flooded. Right. And here's the thing, I'll tell them and, and I'll get some pushback and that's okay. Because again, you have to understand the state of mind is not logic. It's overwhelmed. Right. And it's in survival. Right. So I'm gonna ask to do something really hard and, and that's two things.

Get a buddy, get a friend, get somebody, talk to them and say, this is what I'm experiencing. And that's hard. Yeah. But it, but to have that support will help you with the next one. And that is make a choice to try. Now I know somebody's like, I've tried everything. Okay. To try to get. Yeah, try something. Keep trying.

I mean this is like if you were, if you were exhaust, you know, for the big nature guys and gals out there, right? Like this is something, you get on a hike and you've got blisters and you've been, your back is sore, you know, and all your knees hurt because of all your job injuries and whatever. And you know what?

You keep going until you hit that lake or you keep going until you see the parking lot at the end of the trail, right? Right. And it's just one foot in front of the other. And when you're in a state where you are isolating and you're like, I just, it would be easier to just end my life. Like legitimately not just people being sarcastic and joke.

Yeah. Right. But, but get a buddy gets some call. Call me, call Jerry. It doesn't matter. Get a buddy. Get some, tell somebody what you're experiencing and take, make the choice to try. One thing at a time. I mean, I, I mean, that sounds very oversimplified, but that really, because the brain is stuck. I don't know if I can use a gross analogy on this, but you know, it's my best one, so it's what I got.

But, you know, suicidal thoughts, really suicidal thoughts in that stuck brain. This, it's like, I really gotta come up with a better analogy, but it's like the, the, the poop that won't flush to the toilet, you know? Yeah. You know, it just swirls and swirls and swirls. Right. And, and, and the way that the brain, you change that cycle.

You change that spin is you, you make it think something else. You make it do something else. This is like the big secret. No matter how many times we think we're multitaskers, the science is behind this, that our brain can only, our brain can literally only do one thing at a time. Yeah. So people that say, I'm a multitasker, well, what their brain is actually doing is just switching between things.

More rapidly. So, uh, my husband is not in any sense a multitasker and can only do one thing at a time for that time period. And then, you know, but I can do, I can do a lot, but I can only do so much focus and it's literally just my brain switching right. Quickly. Right. If that makes sense. So, but the brain, if we know that, if we know, brain can only think one thing at a time.

So here I am, I'm, I'm, so, I'm thinking about ending my life. My brain is very overwhelmed. I don't know what to do, I can't make decisions. Well then move forward, do something, make the decision to try something because it needs to move forward. Right. Um, It's kind of like the old movies. I'm not condoning in any way, shape or form, uh, abuse or, uh, domestic violence or anything like that.

Okay. But, you know, in the old movies, you know, there would be like some girl or some guy screaming, you know, because of some horrific thing. You know, we have some horror movie and somebody slaps him in the face to get him snapped out of it. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's not the, the slap or, you know, again, not doing any of that abuse or whatever, but, um, it's that the brain had to jolt out of it.

The, the brain had to stop doing what it was doing and go, what, what just happened? That's what, that's what happened. Right? Yeah. That's why it worked. So it's the same thing. You're isolating, you're doing all these things you're struggling with. Then when you get a buddy and you say, and you say, buddy, I need you to just help me get there.

Right. I need you to, I, I need that. And they. You guys have amazing buddies built into your worlds, your professional worlds. And I don't, I've not found one department yet that wouldn't bend over backwards for the people that are in their department, right? So if it's not family, someone you work with, they'll do anything they can.

And cuz your brain make the decision, make the choice to take, try something. So again, even if you've tried 'em all, I'm not say just try 'em again because your brain needs to snap out of that. Does that make sense? Like it needs to have a different direction to think. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's true. It's when, if, and you're in that state, it's like all your thoughts can start swirling you down and you need to find and focus on something that's going to take you up.

And I know we're near that place. It's very hard to think of something that's gonna take you up and stuff like that. But that's my recommendation. One is just like, get out, get moving, get out of like that dark space. Cause a lot of times you are in a self. Secluded dark space and you're like, you know, curtains are closed.

You know, this is dark in, in, in all, in all the ways and to, to do something. Um, and there's so many ways to find a, a buddy out there, even if you don't like your, you know, living someplace and you don't have any friends and stuff like that. There's plenty of help lines and things to reach out to, uh, you know, to, to get help.

Yeah. And, and, but that's a choice. Um, when I teach about this in, um, my college classes, I, I tell my students it's a, there's a choice, right? Um, you make the choice to reach out, you make the choice to put one foot in front of the other, right? You, you, you make the choice. And, and some of 'em say, so, okay, so somebody made the choice.

My brother, my sister, my mom, my dad, right? Made a choice to end their life. And I said, in that state of mind, I'm not, I don't know what they. We're thinking, right? Like, I'm not in their head, but at some point somewhere there was a choice for them to reach out and, you know, I don't know their stories, right?

But there's that choice. So the the advice is get a buddy and make a choice to try something, right? That can get you out of that work process. And, and I'm not saying it's a magic fix, but it'll get you to that next minute. And when you're in that state, that's what you need. You need the next minute, right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's. But when you're in a, when you're in, and this is what I know too, is a lot of people that struggle with suicidal ideations and, and those kinds of thoughts, they kind of comes in waves and yeah, you might think about it a lot and some might think about it less, but there's waves, right? So when you're an in between wave, does that, you know, like on low left, right?

That's the time that you create the plant when your brain is capable of thinking that way. So we do something in your core training called a crisis response plan, right? But the, the idea is that you're laying out on a little paper, you're writing it out, you're saying, this is my plan so that if I feel myself getting into that high place again, right?

That or load, depending on how you're thinking of it, right? Yeah. Like that really bad place again, unhealthy space again that I can look at the paper and I don't have to just took the guess guesswork out of it. I've got it right here. I came up with this when I was in a better state, right? When I was in a better.

So like right now, if you're feeling good, you know, whoever you are, then, then, then write it down. Who would you call? Who's your buddy? And what are five things that you can try to keep your brain going when you're in that space? But, and the plan isn't always necessarily is for you, but maybe it's for the buddy to help you, right?

Yeah. Right. So, buddy, here you go. So Jerry, I'm gonna call you. I'm having a hard time. Jerry, here's my, this is a thing I wrote down. Right. Here's five things that I, I can do, but my brain's not in a state of mind. I can't even get moving. Okay. Let's go. Right, Jerry, I have no doubts. If I called you, you'd be over at my house right now dragging me out to do whatever was on my right.

Right, right. I think it takes a little bit of vulnerability, you know, in a place. Mm-hmm.  from a person that's in that place to Yeah. To, to call or reach out and mm-hmm. , when you're down that low, like just, I know it's hard. It's hard, but you gotta be. This job and stuff like that doesn't make you wanna feel vulnerable, so you're so worried about what everybody else is going to think or do or whatever, but they'd much rather help you than it, you know, to be honest, than go to your funeral.

Yeah, they would, and, and from the ones I've talked to that have been able to heal. Right? And Jerry, maybe you can speak to this, you know, your comfort level of course, but the ones that I've worked with that have been able to even start the healing journey, right. They are so grateful that they were willing to take that step of vulnerability Yeah.

So that they could begin to heal versus staying in that space. Um, but that was a hard decision. But again, it was that choice. I, I'm gonna be vulnerable, right? Like Right. So you've got your training, you're fighting against, you've got nature, you're fighting against some of us, our personalities are just a little bit more closed off and, uh, reserved.

Right. Um, but it's still a choice, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's end on something way more positive, positive, exciting,

Um, I have, okay, so here's some suggestions. Um, I love music. Uh, I do, I love it. And, uh, by no means an expert. I don't play any music, you know, I just play the radio very loudly in my car. Um, Amazon uses streaming, right? , but this is what I know about music. And, um, I'm one of those that, you know, I'm talking about myself all the time.

Really, that's what I'm talking about. But I, I, uh, my personality is emotionally I'm a little bit more per private, right? So, But music has always been able to access that part of my brain. So the science is there, right? Music affects the brain differently. When you go to religious practices, no matter what faith, there's always music because it, it affects a different part of the brain, right?

Yeah. Um, if you go to games, think about it, the games with no music are like boring, right? You need the pumpy up music, right? You go to the gym, you need your music. So here's the thing. Right now we've got great holiday music coming on, right? Or maybe it's just your favorite playlist. Pick some songs that make you feel good.

And, and the thing is, is that they will hit you within the first two beats of the music, right? Like, my son had me play a song and I was like, this sucks. And he's like, you can't even listen to it all the way. I'm like, I don't need to. This is horrible, you know? But, but music, I mean, we have, this is a great time of year for that.

Some just positive, uplifting music, whereas, Usually during the year, some of that music is a little bit of a struggle. A lot of the words Right, right. Words are powerful and, and a lot of 'em are like, oh, you know, sad story breakups and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But right now, think about it, you know, everything on the Christmas music playlist is about, uh, positive hope.

And there is a lot of songs out there that aren't talking about family and friends. They're just talking about the season and the spirit of the air. Right. So find some music. Five's my favorite number, so I always tell people five snakes, but like five find, you know, five songs and play 'em on replay.

Right? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be holiday music, but there's so many good things that are accessible to us. Um, YouTube videos. Again, uh, music lover and animal lover. So, uh, my boys and I, that is one thing that we do is we pass around those goofy animal clips all the time, right? Of goofy things that animals are doing.

So, so if you're feeling triggered, if you're feeling upset, if you're feeling stressed out or anxious and you haven't been able to kind of figure out a routine or put boundaries in place, YouTube phones, right? Get on there and find some goofy animal. Everyone look up Cookie, the penguin. Um, laughing cookie, the penguin laughing.

I don't even, I'm, I'm hoping it's still on there. It's an older video, but nobody can laugh at this penguin giggling when it's been tickled. . 30 seconds of your life, you know? Yeah, yeah. So there's so much positive around you, but you look around, see what it is. Like I said, you know, just talking to you has been fantastic.

Like, makes my day, you know, better. And, um, looking forward to. Can do great for the wonders and, and for me, believe it or not, sometimes it's getting in my truck and listening to my music very loud because no one appreciates my music in my house. So , here's the, here's, here's the real question. Do you sing too, why you're listening to it?

Of course I do. Okay. Okay. Who doesn't, I mean, I didn't say I, I'm saying if you really wanna get the best outta these five songs that you're gonna put on your playlist, you might as well muzzle. That's right. Sing em and put, if you, if you suck a scene like I do, just put on like the noise canceling ones and then sing anyways.

That's right. I'll be, I was doing it the other day and I was like, crap. The neighbor came to the door. It's s You know what someone said once that you're your true self in your car by. So like, yeah, you're singing to your music, you're jamming to your music, the thought you have right. When you're alone in your car, or maybe it's your house, whatever the case might be.

But yeah, sing because even, I mean, some people love to dance, right? Because of that expression and how it feels good. But singing it also, it really incorporates some of those endorphins. I mean the, some of the songs I ran across in old nineties, like Whitney Houston song the other day, and I was like being able to like just sing it loud Yeah.

And like with my heart into it, right? Like, was really actually kind of good. Like it felt good and almost a healing to a way because of the way that music affects me and, and the messages of that song. You know what I mean? And so, Hey, ever should sing, pick five songs and sing to all of them loudly. Who cares what the neighbors think and who cares what the car next.

Do you think in fact, you know what the cars next to you are thinking? I should have done that. I'm gonna sing now. Yeah,  be the trends. Yeah. Always love pulling up to somebody or behind them like man, they are like getting into it there, but they're happy. See, they're happy. That's right. You and no matter what, even if it's the worst music you've ever heard in your life, they are happy and it makes them feel good.

So good for them. Right? Yeah. Good for them. , Tia, it's been awesome to have you on and I appreciate the, um, sharing your knowledge and your, your wisdom and you know, you, you got great, great advice for moving through the holidays and, you know, getting yourself out of those holiday blues and you know, just taking that step.

Yeah. Taking that stuff and giving yourself permission to, to do maybe some things you would normally. Do. And a lot of stuff I've read lately is like, you gotta find that inner child back in, in you. You know that that person singing? Mm-hmm.  is one of 'em. Right. Kids sing all the time, like all around the house all the time.

Listening to music, dancing 24 7 dancing practically. Mm-hmm . So Dancing Captain Crunch people. It's that simple. Yeah. You're mind, your Captain Crunch and eggnog, you're gonna be known ass. Inner Crunch . Don't dock it till you try. It's fantastic. Yeah. With the eggnog. , yeah. Sort Letting me come. Yeah. I don't know if you're want to do this or not, but where can people find you if they're in, you know, the, let's say the Utah area, or do you work with people outta.

Um, clinically, um, I can't because my license is in the state, but I do a lot of consulting with agencies all over and, and anybody that, you know, wants help with their public safety wellness programs, right. That's my specialty and that's what I help with. And they're welcome to reach out to me. Um, they can call me, text me anytime, uh, email my, I'm assuming you'll post that.

You can drop my email. Yeah. My phone number out. Um, and, um, and then I have a clinic in Oram, Utah, um, that they, you know, they're always welcome to call and, and see myself or one of my therapists and, and the trauma work that we do that way, but, you know, yeah, reach out, please. I mean, I'm always happy to talk to whoever and give tips I can.

It's, uh, it's about providing the service and, and, and, you know, paying it forward. I'm also, I'm a believer of, So I will happily help you because I do want anything to come back to me. It comes down to

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