Healing the Wounds of PTSD: Edmund Dalo's Journey through Creativity

Jerry Dean Lund: 0:15

Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge Podcast. I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and if you haven't already done so, please take out your phone and hit that subscribe button. I don't want you to miss an upcoming episode. And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and review. On whichever platform you listen to this podcast on, such as iTunes, apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps this podcast grow and the reason why, when this gets positive ratings and reviews, those platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify show this to other people that never listened to this podcast before, and that allows our podcast to grow and make a more of an impact on other people's lives. So if you would do that, I would appreciate that from the bottom of my heart. My very special guest today is Edmund Dalo. Edmund is an incredible person. You know he has. My very special guest today is Edmund Dalo. Edmund is an incredible person and I love the perspective that he has approached some of these challenges that has happened to him in his life and that he continues to deal with. Edmund is the co-founder of the Authentic Abstract First Responder Foundation. Edmund has had a career in the first responder world as a firefighter and an EMT, and early on in his career he was diagnosed with chronic stress and then later diagnosed with PTSD. He's going to tell that story and he's going to go into how he uses poetry and music and art for therapy. And I love that he does that because it's a new and refreshing way that I've heard on how to navigate your mental health journey and heal yourself. Let's jump right into this episode with my very special guest.

Edmund Dalo: 2:04

Yeah, so my name is Edmund Dalo. I was a EMT at the cardiac level since I was actually 18 years old, so that was around 14 years. I was a firefighter for nine years, almost made it to 10. I was kind of bummed. I didn't hit that mark and right now, after my retirement, I now run. I co-founded and now run the Authentic Abstraction First Responder Foundation, which our lofty goal is to extinguish PTSD in the first responder community and I think it's going to be tough but we'll see how it goes.

Jerry Dean Lund: 2:49

You're trying. You're trying. That's what is key, and I think you're doing it, at least from my perspective. You're doing it maybe in a little bit unique way compared to others, which would resonate to different types of people, because anything with mental health or anything with health right is not a one-size-fits-all. You've got to find the things that you connect with, and I think you're going to connect with people on a different level, a different way.

Edmund Dalo: 3:17

Yeah, it's so interesting. You said that because you know, for me, I got diagnosed five years in to my career, so I was still really young, I was in my early to mid-20s and it started. Music was really the thing that I started to do and at the station I used to have this little guitar I would take in and I learned to play in the office at the station because, you know, my therapist said, if you're anxious, you know sometimes moving your fingers or keeping your mind occupied will help. So that's actually how I started to play music. Then, as things progressed, it kind of turned into poetry and songwriting and the next thing I know I'm trying painting. And the next thing I know I wrote a poetry book. And the next thing I know I have an art business. So it's strange how it worked out. But that was a thing, on top of all the other things, that really spoke to me and helped me out of some of my more difficult times.

Jerry Dean Lund: 4:20

Yeah, that's very cool. I know, since I retired, like I've tried some different things. You know like that, but it may be that used to do because I feel like it's first responders. Unfortunately, when we get hired into this world we're like hobbies what are those? Every hobby now over sounds what I do for a living. So I've been doing a little woodworking, a little painting, a little car mechanic, but using like your brain in a different way, instead of just like being on the superhigh way of just being at work and you know, in that mode, in that high of vigilance. So I mean, what did the if you don't mind what the doctor diagnosed you with?

Edmund Dalo: 5:00

Yeah, so when it all started, I think it started as like chronic acute stress which you know, I was kind of confused about, you know, and then that kind of progressed to post-traumatic stress disorder, which I never really believed. I was like no, I can't. I, you know, I didn't go to war, you know that's like where my mind went, like I was in the military. I'm a 20 year old kid Like I can't have this diagnosis, like they don't know what they're talking about, type thing, and carry down my merry way. So yeah, that was the original diagnosis. Yeah.

Jerry Dean Lund: 5:42

Yeah, and that was, like you said, really hard to hear and even harder to you know to believe that. Do you believe that now? Oh, 100%.

Edmund Dalo: 5:52

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I remember, you know, being on the fire department and like pulling my back I'd be afraid to tell anybody because I just didn't want to, you know, be the guy who's who hurt his back and he's in his twenties and you know. So I would just, you know, take some Advil, maybe use a sick day and make sure I stretch and just kind of like grit out the pain. So I was ashamed, honestly. Yeah, about the mental health stuff.

Jerry Dean Lund: 6:26

Yeah, I mean, that's something that's completely different to divulge to somebody. And even like, I mean, can you really grind out a mental health Home or issue or diagnosis? Can you really grind that out?

Edmund Dalo: 6:45

Yeah, I think you know. The answer that I learned the hard way is is no, that the you know. The thing that really sticks out to me is when I started to be more open and share. This is when a lot of my difficulties started with my career, and you know, all the things I feared came true. You know which is why I'm retired.

Jerry Dean Lund: 7:07

Yeah, I'm going to ask you kind of a unique question. Do you think you know, when we fear something or we are worried, like in worry of something, especially at work and stuff like that, do you think that's something that we can like, maybe manifest or bring into our lives? Or I mean, how do you feel about that?

Edmund Dalo: 7:25

I've never asked anybody that question, so yeah, I mean I at this point in my life, I'm a pretty spiritual individual, so I understand, you know, I get the concept and I think the answer to that is maybe. And the reason I say that is because I think at times that is true, especially with things like, say, social anxiety, because these threats aren't necessarily real. You're making them up but then you're reinforcing the thing that's not. You know that's not happening, it's made up in your mind. When it comes to this particular situation, I think that it was happening. So there was a very real reason to be scared because I was kind of seeing these little hints everywhere. So I think it's a maybe on that answer. I do like the question.

Jerry Dean Lund: 8:16

Yeah, yeah, and I mean because other areas of life that it could be a little bit easier to do. That I think and for first responders, research actually shows that spirituality is one of their top priorities. It's up there, right close with family. Yeah, so I think it would be difficult to do this job and maybe not be spiritual, but I feel like maybe that's something that we maybe discover more after we're out of you know that line of work, maybe. Yeah, I mean, what's your thoughts?

Edmund Dalo: 8:55

Yeah, I would say I think that I always. I think a lot of first responders I don't want to what's the right word to be too general or too big, but from my experiences we're a very caring bunch. Even if there is this macho culture that sometimes we refer to, I think at the root of it everyone cares a lot and I think that's why sometimes you run into so much of that toxic masculinity is because it's not manly to be to care as much as a lot of us do about others and about just things. Where we're fixers, we're savers, we're that person and I think that we feel a lot and we feel things very intensely. And I think with that comes, it has to come out somewhere, and I think spirituality is a big place where that comes out. And whether that be, you know, someone just kind of believing that what they're doing serves a higher purpose, or someone says like, hey, this is my. It's almost like a ministry at times, this line of work when you're really in it for the right reasons, I think that's why a lot of us get into it. So, even if someone doesn't know, I think that's a spiritual practice being a first responder.

Jerry Dean Lund: 10:31

Yeah, I mean there's and there's a thing of compassion. Fatigue, right, that can, that can happen. Certainly, a lot of what I feel like, you see, is like just a lot of emotions that were not educated about how to feel them, how to deal with them. So I think that leads to these other issues that we have in our career and it could be right, could be the span of relationship issues, leadership with admin, or even right, you know, it's even severe things like PTSD.

Edmund Dalo: 11:11

It's so true because all these things add up. So when we don't know what anxiety is and we can't identify anxiety, you know, like me, I just blame myself, like, oh, you know you can't handle this. Or when you know, on my days off, if I didn't want to get out of bed, it would be blaming. Well, it was, you know, rough two nights and really that might have been some, you know, depression symptoms, and then you know that kind of goes a lot of different ways. When I remember when I started having like actual flashbacks, I would just be like, oh, maybe I just maybe that second drink was too much, maybe I should like, maybe that's why this happened. So always an excuse, always blaming something for having an emotion. But I think, like you said, I think it was just confusion, like what are these things I'm feeling? Where do they come from?

Jerry Dean Lund: 12:09

So yeah, yeah, and so what's our go to is we stuff them down and then we don't know enough feeling really anything, and we just feel dead inside.

Edmund Dalo: 12:25

Wow, yeah, it's spot on. I mean, I remember there was like a certain time in my career where I learned how to do it. It was like actually a skill where I learned and I think that one of my therapists called it functional disassociation where you would actually disassociate from the emotion and from the scene and feel nothing, Because when someone asked me how you feel about something, I'd be like I don't really feel anything and like how, and then maybe three months from then, from that incident, I would burst into tears driving home from the gym and not know why that happened, or be reminded of these things and not know why that happened. Yeah, which was so alarming.

Jerry Dean Lund: 13:16

I think it happens more than we know, because you can go to an incident and you can feel different things, right. Some people feel nothing, some people really move by it, maybe good or bad, and then, like you said, something could pop up months, years down the road. Sometimes, I mean, I don't know if you've ever felt this, but sometimes my emotions wouldn't have matched the situation. So I'd feel an emotion and I'm like that's not really the emotion that I should be feeling right now, like watching a kid sport, and then something just pop up and it upsets me like I want to cry. Something's wrong. That's not how it should be.

Edmund Dalo: 14:06

That's such a great example that I don't think I ever connected the dots on. I think that came too late for me. I think I might have missed all the signs. And then it came too late and I remember one of the more prominent experiences I had that really stuck out to how sick I was was walking by my niece's bedroom and they're young, they're all under 10 and looking into the bedroom and actually seeing a dead person who wasn't there on the floor. Yeah, and it's because it was a call where I did CPR for 30 minutes in a little girl's bedroom and that was one that just destroyed me and I remember that moment and I was with my partner, amy. I couldn't hide it because it was right out in the open. And that was the one. I was like wow, you can't even spend time with your nieces. You're avoiding their bedroom. It's like something's really wrong and that was one of the big, big, big tickets for me.

Jerry Dean Lund: 15:23

Yeah, that is a really strong and powerful emotion. I mean, I couldn't even imagine At least I can't think of any of that right off the hat that that I've had strong emotions like that. That would be super hard to deal with and really probably confusing on what to really do about that, other than I mean right. The thing I would like to say right now is like, because we're not in the moment would be like yeah, I should probably go see a therapist about this and work through this. But I mean, how long did it take you to realize that maybe that was something that you needed to do, or could you work that out?

Edmund Dalo: 16:04

So it's interesting because how this all started was when I met my partner, amy. She's actually a mental health therapist, thank God. So she actually started pointing out to me and kind of hinting, like hey, you know you're driving and the emotion does not match this person just kind of sped up ahead of you and maybe passed you on the right. That is kind of annoying, but that emotion definitely doesn't match the situation. So, kind of like you said, now some of the things are starting to close and I remember that I was like, yeah, I guess maybe that's right, and that was like a small version of what I've been feeling. So I'm like, oh, maybe I do need some help. So I was already in therapy for three years and I think for me I was not being completely honest with myself about how bad it was. So how could I then be honest with therapists? Yeah, and it's. I think you know, as first responders we're protectors, right. I think I was protecting everyone from my illness and just kind of trying to eat it honestly. And the funny thing is I still think I was doing better than some of the guys on my job that I was seeing. I wasn't into drugs, I wasn't, you know I wasn't drinking in excess. I was kind of like I was doing better from in my perspective. Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, my perspective obviously is skewed, so it's your perspective.

Jerry Dean Lund: 17:48

It's fair yeah.

Edmund Dalo: 17:49

Yeah. So I mean, I thought I was doing like, all things considered, I was doing like they are the moderate you know.

Jerry Dean Lund: 17:57

Yeah, I mean for first responders. You know, studies show that her go to reaction is rage, rage and rage and avoidance. I mean that's just. I mean the go go to things for us. I mean, and I think that's right, part of Lisa in rage is not going to work at home for sure. Right, it's not going to really work anywhere. But being mad and angry might, you know, on certain things at work might be a little better than having them at home. But you know, then we're off shift and then we're into the avoidance of everything. So I mean I'm glad you had a partner that was there to like kind of help, maybe, point some of those things out, to like kind of get you thinking. But if you don't mind me asking what type of therapy we're in talk therapy or we in like EMDR or ART or yeah, so it was talk therapy.

Edmund Dalo: 18:52

I started EMDR as the symptoms got worse. But man and I'm still in EMDR therapy and it is some of the most profound experiences I've ever had. It's wild and it works, you know, which is why you know my foundation is investing, and, you know, paying for therapists to go to this training, because you know our theory is if we flood the market with EMDR therapist and entice people to go to it, that's more for everyone.

Jerry Dean Lund: 19:30

Yeah, more for first responders. Yeah, definitely I know that people like EMDR and ART that's. Art is like a faster version of EMDR and you know those work well. For others, I think part of my just own personal problem with some of them is like is letting what you kind of talked about is like letting go just fully? Like letting go in those therapy sessions is really. I think it's kind of like where the magic happens. You got to be like trust the other person and you got to let it. Let it go even though there's not a lot of talk going on. But without letting it go you can't get very fast resolved right it's, you know it's really accurate.

Edmund Dalo: 20:18

And for me, I know I could not get better in the environment that I was in. So that's why leaving and retiring was the key factor in my recovery, because the environment, I believe, was keeping me in that trauma cycle and the my perspective, the lack of support that I received, was making all the trauma worse, because I felt even more isolated than I already was. So I know, for me it was about getting out of a bad situation. It's like you can't. How do you stop, you know, drinking if your partner is at home and she's drinking a bunch and you're trying to stop, it makes it a lot harder, right, right. So I think it was kind of like that situation. It was like you know, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna do this, it's, my career is over.

Jerry Dean Lund: 21:13

Yeah, and it's accumulative right. These. You know there's a cumulative PTSD and PTSD and there's some different studies and about it. But, yeah, continue to expose yourself to trauma when you're trying to get better is definitely going to slow it down. If nothing right, else right. And then, yeah, and depending on the calls you go on to or how you're feeling, yeah, I could totally see where you're coming from.

Edmund Dalo: 21:40

Yeah, it's interesting how it kind of worked for me. It was like things got really bad and then I got hurt physically. So while I was out with this physical injury, I had surgery, was recovering. That's when the symptoms just roared and it was because I was I stopped there, was I didn't have to be at work. I had nothing else to do than COVID hit. So it was like game on Eddie. You got to sit in the shit, so it's like I was just eating it you know it was a and I remember at that time I worked so hard to be able to go back to work, even against better judgment From some providers. I fought them a lot and said I'm going back to my job. This is my. I've been an EMT's. I was 18. This is my life. It's all I know. It's the only way I know how to make money and it's what I love to do and I'm good at it. You know, quite frankly, I was good at my job and, yeah, I went back in the first night back, I did CPR and had a house fire and I was like you know, one of my big trauma things was breaking ribs. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know. So it was like every time a chicken bone would crack, every time I'd hear a wood floor squeak. You know it's game on. So it's like first shift back, it was like no mercy and I lasted six more months and that was the end of it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 23:16

Yeah, I mean I could see why you would would want to go back. Right, it's just the love and the passion for the job and you're good at it, and just what else you have going for your. You did you feel like you had like something else going for you, like, oh, I could leave this job and I could go do this instead, so this is not going to be a problem.

Edmund Dalo: 23:38

No, never went to college, never. You know this was. I was an EMT school when I was in high school. I just have always loved this work and still do. I mean still crushes me that I'm not there, yeah. But yeah, I mean, luckily I accumulated skills, you know, in high school and luckily I have a you know, part time job now that is very supportive and understands my diagnosis and works with me and is flexible with me and appreciates me. And I'm lucky because that's really hard to find.

Jerry Dean Lund: 24:16

Yeah, it definitely is hard to find. I really like the part you said they appreciate you. Yeah, that's important, especially if you've gone through stuff where you've felt like you haven't been appreciated or you struggled with things and to find some place that you feel appreciated is probably feels pretty powerful inside, you know it really is motivating and I think it inspires me to work harder, and I think that's a big miss on leadership and organizations, especially in the first responder community, as I know.

Edmund Dalo: 24:51

You know, we we are paramilitary organizations and we we break down and then build up, and I would say how's that working? You know, yeah, maybe a little appreciation, maybe a little bit of collaboration, maybe a little bit of listening to one another, and that goes for both sides. You know there's a cost to running cities and towns and departments, but there's also a human element and, you know, maybe just more of an a comer when comer minds and bodies meet without you know agendas. Maybe that would help. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Jerry Dean Lund: 25:34

Definitely. I'm a huge person and I talk about perspective. A lot is trying to see the other person's perspective, just giving the other person space. You know to do that, like okay, explain it to me so I can understand where you come from. I don't have to agree with you at the end, but I want to like understand where you're coming from and like maybe we can make me somewhere in the middle. But we always talk about less me in the middle because it's, you know, a compromise and everything. But how can you really effectively do that if you can't appreciate maybe, something about the other person's perspective or some have some understanding of it?

Edmund Dalo: 26:13

It's so true. And you know what just popped in my head was like. I remember the time where I couldn't do the job anymore and I was, you know, essentially forced to hand in my medical documents and say like, hey, this is what's going on, I need some support, I need some time out of work. And I was definitely not met with that. I was, you know, met very differently and you know that, honestly, for me was one of the most traumatizing experiences, because I was so vulnerable and so hurt, and to be met that way, when my perspective was like stomped out essentially it's what it, you know, felt like to me was devastating, was devastating, and that actually led to, you know, my suicide attempt, which was, you know, something I never would have perceived. Being someone who has been to so many of those calls and done so much of that stuff, I just never thought I could be in that position and you know, sure enough there.

Jerry Dean Lund: 27:17

I was yeah, if you don't mind talking about this, I mean, I've had my own battle with that as well. But and going on so many calls and after, like personally, like thinking about attempting it and getting close, you know, to doing it, I had a little bit. And having other people around me commit suicide, I had a little bit better understanding of, like, how they got to the place where they were just so desperate to just like I just want to stop hurting, I just want to sleep, I just, you know some of these things. I just don't know how to stop. And this is, this is the way you know, it's just that downward spiral, right, that you get into and you're just like you want to stop it, but you, I think, alone is very difficult for you know to stop.

Edmund Dalo: 28:10

It really isn't. With me. I had a lot of support, which I'm so lucky for. I think that One of the pieces for me was I didn't realize how deep I was until I was so deep. It was like I was sinking and the perception was off. Then, next thing, you know you're trying different medications and you're not sleeping like you said. Then there's therapy appointments and you miss one because for me I couldn't keep track of time anymore. It was like now I miss the therapy appointment, now I get charged this, but I'm not making any money. Now I have this hearing, I have to go to and meet with this representative. It's just next thing you know you are doing things you never would have thought you'd be doing, right.

Jerry Dean Lund: 29:09

You're a shell of yourself. You're just like a walking, almost feel like zombie in some ways, Just trying to go through the motions of life. But it's very difficult.

Edmund Dalo: 29:22

I think you spoke to it. You said, like pain, you want the pain to stop, and the reality was for me. The physical pain was excruciating. I felt exhausted all the time, yet if I closed my eyes they would bug right back open. My body hurt my back, my shoulders, my hips, my neck, my teeth broke a tooth from clenching my teeth. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack most of the day. It was like the physical pain was excruciating and just the negative thoughts. It was just like this is enough. Enough is enough, because it can't be any worse than this. That's what was going through my mind at that time when I was really sick is I can't get much worse when I wish. Looking back, I can tell myself then that it also gets better. Right, right.

Jerry Dean Lund: 30:22

It does, it definitely does. I was trying to think to some of those moments of going back about how I was feeling. For me, I think I had a false perception of physical pain. I can handle that. I mean, I was probably not. Let's be honest, I'm probably not excruciating physical pain, but physical pain to level is like I can deal with that, but this mental anguish that I'm feeling, that is a lot harder for me to deal with than the physical pain.

Edmund Dalo: 30:58

Yes, I think the mental anguish for me was so skewed, I was so confused and so overwhelmed that it all blended into one big soup. The physical stuff for me is what really stuck out, like the headaches and like I said, all that stuff and I was like, oh man, this isn't working. But I could definitely see the mental stuff. I think the mental stuff it's funny because in that time that's when I started painting, and it was like the canvas and the pen and the paper were the only thing that could take the beating that I was giving myself and that's how this whole thing started. But that was the only thing that could handle the extent of my mental torture. Yeah, I think was that like a?

Jerry Dean Lund: 31:53

release then to you. Did that become like your, or was it like a release?

Edmund Dalo: 31:57

Or it's interesting because I think in the beginning one of PTSD symptom or trauma symptom is like reliving traumatic experiences In some way or like creating this sense of chaos to keep yourself in that traumatized, hyperactive state, and I think my earlier paintings were doing that. I was like recreating house fires in a way, and like lighting a canvas on fire and putting it out and really strange, odd things that I never thought I'd be doing, and like smashing paint spray cans wrapped in a canvas and seeing what happened and a lot of unhealthy processing of trauma, a lot of very dangerous processing of trauma. But for me at that time that's what was happening and now it's more of an outlet and I think if I had more guidance in it, I think it would have been a little bit better in terms of maybe another artist kind of like show me.

Jerry Dean Lund: 33:17

Well, you know there's another way you could do this, yeah.

Edmund Dalo: 33:23

So I think at that time it was an extension of the trauma Because I was treading water. So looking back I can give myself some compassion because I was definitely treading yeah.

Jerry Dean Lund: 33:39

So how did you get to a good space of being in creating art and poetry and music and how did you move from that, maybe that dark time, to something that's like enlightened you?

Edmund Dalo: 33:58

I think it started with the book that Brendan, my co-worker and best friend, and I wrote together, and that was the concept of the book was we're just going to tell the truth, we're going to give some of the trauma back that society gave us, because I can no longer be a keeper of society's trauma and I can't protect society from reality. And I think first responders, a lot of us, bear that weight and there's a lot of things happening in these little towns and cities next door that you I never would have expected and I protected everyone from that. I think a lot of first responders do. And I think, first, by telling the truth, telling it to each other, to Brendan was easier than telling it to the therapist, because he got it, he knew he got it at a visceral level, he understood where I was coming from and then started with that book. And then the paintings kind of just evolve into this place of my brother took notice, who you met earlier. He's like we were throwing these paintings away. We would make paintings and throw them away. And Michael's like, can I buy one? And I'm like I mean, if you want to, they're covered in dirt and mud and destroyed. And next thing you know he's buying them. And next thing you know he's like, hey, why don't you guys start a little business? Little did I know his motive was to like help us. Now he was like, hey, guys, if he was trying to show us there was value in what we were doing. And next thing you know we have an art business and we're selling a lot of paintings. And next thing you know we're like first responders are emailing us saying like I've gone through stuff like this too, and this is just local. And then next thing you know someone reaches out to us and I'm like, hey, I could help you start a nonprofit. I think you have something here. And, honestly, that transition from doc to light happened with the support of others. The paintings bought me time, the poetry bought me time, the peer support bought me time. It really started when people you know kind of put their shoulder under my armpit and you were a crutch and they were like, no, we got you Because Brendan and I were treading water and it was really started with people outside of the healthcare community really like supporting us and rooting for us and caring about us getting better. I wish I found more of that in the first responder community locally here, but I'm happy I found any and I'm happy to be here.

Jerry Dean Lund: 36:58

Yeah, yeah, I think that's kind of what I was talking like doing my wood project. You know that I was doing no plans, like I'm just I haven't done woodworking. I mean I was a carpenter like 20 in a way. Wow, 30 some odd years ago. I did some carpentry work and built some houses. So I haven't really done anything like since. And I built this table and I did this epoxy of this thin red blue line and red blue line flag in it and just did it all, just with no plans, just kind of winging it and not a lot of tools, just so I could be like I need to use my mind in a different way and just so I. That's why I love and appreciate about what you're doing is this like you know, when we got into the first responder world, a lot of us had so many great hobbies but then we gave those up with. Those hobbies, probably if we would have kept them, would still be, still play a part in healing us today.

Edmund Dalo: 37:59

Definitely. I think what happened for me at one of my big hobbies was exercise and because of how you know, physically I was hurt. And then there was also this you know, this mental hurt which causes physical hurt comes out physically. I wasn't able to exercise as much and you know, I was kind of like things just all of my hobbies soccer couldn't play soccer anymore cause I hurt my hip. So there was another one that went. When I came to woodworking and stuff like that, I also dabbled a bit. It was kind of like I don't know, I can't build any more furniture from my house, like it's not, you know, she's going to kill me, like. So it was kind of like, but I can do a paper and pen and I can throw some paint. And you know, when I kind of got out of that mindset of you know, I grew up, I don't know about you, but you know it was kind of like an artist draws things and artists knows how to make things beautiful. When I realized an artist is someone who just does what they do, it feels good to them, and then stands by it and says, yeah, I did that. I was, it was. It was mind boggling. I was like, wow, it's not this thing, that's out of touch. All you have to do is just do you and then say I did that, yeah, I love that, I love that and that's I mean, that's what we do. I mean, you know, I did a workshop at RISD, Rhode Island School of Design, which I never thought I'd be doing workshop at RISD, being someone who was, you know, doing what I was doing. And yeah, we, you know, and the programs we teach. It was the same program that we do through the nonprofit, which is we call the authentic expression workshop. So, you know, you match up, you circle emotions and then you match up those emotions with colors, with sizes, with shapes, with strokes. Next thing, you know, you have a beautiful piece of abstract art just based off you circle in some emotions and I think it's really powerful for people to realize that their emotions are beautiful and they can come out and things are okay. You know, you can look at them and see them and they're tangible and it's fine. You know, I think it's just really empowering for people.

Jerry Dean Lund: 40:27

Yeah, I like that expression and I like the format of doing it, because my wife's kind of like it's okay, it doesn't have to be perfect, and I'm like, but I want some pride in this project. You know, like I'm putting some really hard work in it. You're just being creative and like, no, I would need it to be. You know this way. So I do like. So maybe building furniture, maybe one way to be more precision, but doing art, you know, is just you have the expression of yourself and standing by. I like that.

Edmund Dalo: 40:56

So it's interesting what would that get no go ahead, go ahead. It's interesting because, you know, for me, I love a piece of furniture that, with some defects or that has some life, some character to it. To me that is like that's what I, it's why people love antiques, right, that's why people love, you know, that stuff and I, you know there's a time and place for it all and I think at the end it's you know, there's a level of craftsmanship to something. If I build a frame and it, you know it's not, my 45s are off, yeah, my hangings are off, right, my 90s are off, whatever, like that doesn't work right, it's gonna be all jacked up, but you know, when it comes to I think, it's like a pick and a choose between what you're gonna beat yourself up for and what you're not, right, you know, and I think self-compassion and all of it is really, really important.

Jerry Dean Lund: 41:55

Yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think part of it was just proving something to myself that I could do something and look good and sit back and like look at it and be like, yeah, I took time and it was, you know, some precision into it and stuff. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying and I think that's what maybe she was trying to explain to me is like, have some self-compassion, but I mean also fascinating to build something that it does just to be a free spirit, right, and so ways and just like art or build something and just do it and let it yeah and stand for yeah, that's cool.

Edmund Dalo: 42:33

Just stand by it. I mean, I, you know, whatever I have to write, you know, like an artist statement at this point. It's, you know, my, what I write is my art. My work is a double down on imperfection and a practice of authentic expression. That's it. Well, it's kind of like. This is what it is, and you know it's not for everyone. But I will say that when I stopped trying to please the masses, that is when I found some support and peace within myself, when I realized that I wasn't making it for them. I'm making it for me and I'm sharing it with you, and you can either say yes or no.

Jerry Dean Lund: 43:20

That's some wisdom there, my friend. That is some wisdom that is very powerful. That is really great.

Edmund Dalo: 43:29

Yeah, thank you, it's yeah, and you know it's interesting because it's as good as I'm feeling. I'm just one dead squirrel away from a flashback, I'm. You know, I'm one for every two steps forward, I get knocked back one and sometimes it's two, and I think it's important that it's not like recovery looks different for everyone and getting better looks different for everyone, and I think it's just. I think the key to it, honestly, for me is self compassion and it's being able to say like, hey, didn't have a good day, you know, but that's okay and that's okay.

Jerry Dean Lund: 44:16

So here's something that I see and I felt as a first responder self compassion. There's not a place for that on the job.

Edmund Dalo: 44:29

I mean preach. Yeah, I just have to preach. If you make a mistake, there's literally lives in your hands or your own, and there's no room for an error. So I think as a first responder in those situations I can say there's no room for errors. Sometimes, I think you know, do you agree with that?

Jerry Dean Lund: 44:59

No, no, I totally agree with what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, that's why it's important to be with a team, yes, yes, but we don't have very much self-compassion for ourselves if we make a mistake or if someone else makes a mistake, because the consequences are so high. I'm not saying all the time, but they're sure made to feel like they're high all the time. I mean, I think every single first responder out there really I shouldn't say every single one, I should use better words than that but are truly trying to do the best they can do and I'm not out there to do any harm. They're just really doing the best that they can do. Who knows what's happening in their life outside of work? These are human beings showing up doing the best they can and getting called to things that are not, that are disturbing, right, and on people's generally worst day of their lives, that's where they're calling you. So it's really rough.

Edmund Dalo: 46:02

It is. And one thing that really stuck up to me is like when I was going through some of the stuff with the administration, the state law here in Rhode Island is that PTSD, as a first responder, you have to be exposed to something above and beyond what is typical that a first responder responds to. What a vague and broad thing, right? Yeah, so you know the calls that I went to because they weren't these big incidents that some examples that were given to me by people in power were were you at 9-11? Were you at the station night club fire? Were you exposed to trauma of that level? When I said no, I lost credibility, my PTSD lost credibility in the eyes of the powers to be. And how hurtful to you know to put that burden on us to prove that we respond to really tough things. And it's you know, it's sad, it's you know, kind of where we are here in this state and you know a lot. You know I don't know how it is for a lot of other places, but yeah, the things that you know, I remember going pulling up to house fires and essentially like waking up on the second floor, like not.

Jerry Dean Lund: 47:33

Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. You know what I mean.

Edmund Dalo: 47:35

Like realizing, like, oh, from the moment I got the call to the moment I pulled the line to like got to the second floor and the you know the two guys walked, ran past me down the stairs with their shirts over their face and, you know, calling out to make it sure no one else in the building. By the time I got I'm on my, you know, searching in the black. That's when I realized what I'm doing. So, and that's a very common human experience, that is a driven response. This is where humans, man, like Going to work yeah, it happens, you know, and it's like these things happen, mistakes happen, and I just think, if there's a little bit more flexibility, compassion and, you know, like you said, a team, but it, you know, it seems a lot of places where you know the team, the team mindset, is there when people want it to be there and not when it serves other people better than others, you know, to be able to navigate away from that team mindset, you know.

Jerry Dean Lund: 48:42

Yeah, yeah, I got you. You know, I don't you know it's interesting.

Edmund Dalo: 48:49

My, you know thought processes. We're all fighting the same fight, right? We're all in this together. I truly believe that I was really let down, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do it anyway. In the way I know how. Yeah, it's hard. The art stuff for first responders is hard. The looks I get, the. You know a lot of that. A lot of the stuff is really difficult, which is why, like one of the big initiatives that we did was an anonymous PO box where anyone from across the country can send us anything about what they're going through, their experiences, and that we make art out of it. So we raise awareness by say you wrote something into us. We have no idea who you are. Wow, you know you would write. You know 23 years firefighter and you could write out some of the worst things you ever experienced, or the best, doesn't matter. And you know the theory is like it gives you an outlet. You don't even know that you're helping yourself by picking up a paper and a pen. It gives us inspiration to create and with those creations we are raising awareness. And you know, doing this, this thing of all being together, you know we and we can, we'll use anyone's support, whether it's anonymous or not. Just you know we're all here trying to figure this out.

Jerry Dean Lund: 50:19

Yeah, the thing I really appreciate about what you're doing is just the unique way of doing it Like it just. For me it's unique. I haven't heard of anybody doing anything like this before. I think it's very unique and just. I think we need that right More variety of outlets or more variety of things to to connect with, really to connect with.

Edmund Dalo: 50:43

So we had free yoga for first responders when I was on and it was myself and probably like five or six others who who utilize that benefit, and then that stopped because there was another local nonprofit but there was, you know, there was hundreds of us on the fire department, so that spoke to five or six. So if what I'm doing speaks to five or six and what you're doing speaks to five or six, and what the yoga studio is doing speaks to five or six, and then what the other guys doing or the other gals doing speaks to five or six, next thing, you know we've covered a huge population. So you know, when we say extinguishing PTSD, we're doing our part, you're doing your part, you know, and PTSD is a nasty diagnosis that I hope no one ever experiences. And I'm going to do my best, as as hard as I tried, to be a, you know, good firefighter and a good EMT and, trust me, I have many, many flaws, but as hard as I tried, I'm trying this hard to accomplish this because I really felt like I was hung out to dry a lot of the times and I don't want others to feel like that.

Jerry Dean Lund: 51:59

Yeah, I can completely understand what you're saying and I think you know the ripple effect of this is helping five or six first responders just think of the ripple effect that helps with their families and then you know it's just, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot bigger when you reach out or put yourself out there to help others, the you know the effect that it that it has. So I think that's what's so powerful about doing what you're doing. You know our love to probably do and help. People are similar but different, right, and it connects with different people in different ways. But I appreciate you. You know getting out there and doing it. Eddie, where can people find you and follow you and support you?

Edmund Dalo: 52:39

Yeah. So before I say that, I want to say that it's all. It's all good, right. So the what you're doing, what I'm doing, what some musicians are doing, and politicians and leaders and family members it says. I think that it boils down to we're good people and we're trying. You know, and I think that that's what's important is, we're good and we're trying. It doesn't matter in what realm, it's just goodness.

Ad: 53:07

So, yeah, thank you for that yeah.

Edmund Dalo: 53:11

Whatever works, it's just good. Yeah, so and so we are the authentic abstraction first responder foundation. Aafrforg is our website and where we have a lot of initiatives going on, and we're actually just finishing up a full length documentary which we're super excited about. Wow, yes, we have, I forgot about that. We have an amazing documentary team. It's ridiculous so good, chronicling a lot of what we talked about and a lot of other behind the scenes stuff. And then our Instagram is AAFRF and I just really hope that our initiatives are utilized. It helps me and inspires me to keep going, and I know that it helps others because they told me yeah, and just so you know, jerry, same thing, it's like. This has helped me so much. Being able to have a space where I can share my stories to a wider audience, who I know. Someone's feeling like I did yeah, I know it, and it's what you've created here is beautiful. I thank you so much for not only the work that you did, but the work that you do.

Jerry Dean Lund: 54:39

Yeah, yeah, vice versa, man, thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for being a great guest and being willing to share and be open and honest, I think, and vulnerable, which is really hard to do for anybody. It's hard to do, really hard to do for first responder men as well. Yes, it's very hard. I appreciate you setting the standards.

Edmund Dalo: 55:06

Yeah, I mean, I just really hope that. I just really hope we can have more open conversations. You know, I really think my career and so many others careers could have been salvaged. There's so much investment that goes into us.

Jerry Dean Lund: 55:24

Yeah, it just makes sense for everyone to figure it out you know, and it's salvaged the best resource you have and that's the the research is there.

Edmund Dalo: 55:35

And it's all there. We just have to do it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 55:38

I agree. I agree we have to move from knowing what there's a problem to doing something about the problem. And really what I mean by doing something is bigger and better and faster, like just not checking a box.

Edmund Dalo: 55:53

Yes, and we've seen it in societies where really wild things can be done if people collaborate and put their minds to it. I mean it can be done. Let's not, let's not show them. It's not sugarcoated at all. It can be done. It's just a matter of who's going to do it, and I think you are. You and I and a lot of others are doing it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 56:18

Yeah, so just got to agree. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being on today.

Edmund Dalo: 56:24

Thank you from the bottom of my heart and all those on the AFRF team for having, because it means the world to us.

Ad: 56:33

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