From Street Cop to Wellness Warrior: A Retired Officer's Inspiring Journey of Resilience and Advocacy- Author Christopher Hoyer

[00:00:00] Jerry: Hi everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Enduring the Badge podcast. I'm host Jerry Dean Lund, and I don't want you to miss an upcoming episode, so please hit that subscribe button. And while your phone's out, please do me a favor and give us a review on iTunes or our Apple Podcast. It says, Hey, this podcast has a great message and we should send it out to more people.

[00:00:20] Jerry: So please take that 30 seconds to a minute to do that review and just maybe by doing that, it'll push this up into someone's podcast feed that really needs this message. Everyone. I'm super excited to announce that I've teamed up with an incredible person, and that person is Dr. Tia White. She is a public safety, wellness and empowerment specialist.

[00:00:40] Jerry: Together, we have combined our knowledge and expertise to create a. Five day training course. Now, that training course, you can attend different days of that training course, whichever ones fit you, but day one would be peer support and how to structure that and get your team up and running, and maybe some of the legalities about that.

[00:00:59] Jerry: Days two, three and four are going to be about advanced wellness and sleep and finances and family dynamics and diet and nutrition and retirement and mindfulness and meditation, and how to be that complete first. But we did not want to leave out the significant other in your life, and that is gonna be on day five.

[00:01:21] Jerry: Feel free to bring that significant other with you. And we are going to do a training that's gonna empower the both of you to have a better relationship, a successful relationship, and one that is going to stand the test of time as a first responder for additional information. Go to the Instagram page called Complete First Responder for More Details.

[00:01:49] Jerry: My very special guest today is Chris Hoyer. Chris is an incredible person. He fought crime on some of the meanest, baddest streets in Phoenix, Arizona. They are known to be infested with drug cartels, and we're gonna dive down into that. We're also gonna talk about him being involved in three officer shootings and losing a very close friend in one of 'em, and touch on the other officers that took their lives during the time that he spent at Phoenix.

[00:02:20] Jerry: Police department. This is an incredible story about his career, but he's also very dedicated about giving back. He's turned into an advocate for mental and physical health and emotional wellness. So much so that he goes out and speaks. And not only that, he wrote an incredible book that is called When That Day Comes Train for the Fight.

[00:02:44] Jerry: Now let's jump right into this episode so we can get down into the nitty gritty about Chris's career and how he fought that crime on the streets. 

[00:02:54] Jerry: How are you doing, Chris? 

[00:02:55] Chris: Doing awesome. Thanks for the invite. 

[00:02:57] Jerry: Yeah, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Chris, can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

[00:03:04] Chris: Yeah. So, um, believe or not, I actually moved to San Diego after I retired from the Phoenix Police Department in, uh, 2018. Did my 20 years in 64 days. And yes, believe or not, I was counting at the end there. So, uh, now living the best life ever, just awesome. So 

[00:03:21] Jerry: yeah, that's a little bit of a change from, uh, Phoenix, uh, Southern California.

[00:03:25] Chris: Well, not only to that, but I was actually born in New Hampshire and lived in Virginia. And in Arizona, I know my final, hopefully final wrestling place here in San Diego. So. 

[00:03:34] Jerry: Nice. Are you close to the beach? 

[00:03:36] Chris: We are. Literally, I walk out my front door. I'm on the sand in 10 minutes. So yeah, that's, that's the whole reason for being here, so 

[00:03:43] Jerry: That's beautiful.

[00:03:44] Jerry: I'm jealous. 

[00:03:46] Chris: Open door anytime, man. Come on. 

[00:03:48] Jerry: I appreciate. Why were you counting down the days when you were in Phoenix? 

[00:03:52] Chris: Oh, well, I had a. I had a very unusual career and I didn't expect it to be at all what it was, but by the end, by my, uh, on my, well, just really quick thing, on my 20th anniversary of my best friend on the department lost his dog in the deployment.

[00:04:10] Chris: And that was, um, my, what had to be my final major critical incident for me. Um, but I had also, Um, at the time, buried 16 of my Phoenix PD buddies in a line of duty and involved in three officer involved shootings, and then one career ending gun fight in 2016. And by the end of the, by my, my 20th year, I was, I was just done.

[00:04:34] Chris: I just, I had enough and I couldn't take anymore. So, 

[00:04:37] Jerry: Um, I can understand that. I think, I mean, in some, in some way that I could see how you'd be done. That's a lot of stuff to go through. 

[00:04:46] Chris: Yeah. Well, and that's, that's just a big major stuff when I, you're talking about, you know, the, the failed marriage and, you know, all just a daily grind of everything else.

[00:04:54] Chris: And the regular notice of investigations that I got on a semi-regular basis because of my, my antics, if you will, on the street, because, you know, I was one of those guys where I'm like, you know, you're paying me. Bad guys. I'm, I'm gonna chase bad guys, and I did, and I got into a lot of really great stuff.

[00:05:10] Chris: But of course that does come with a price on some level sometimes. 

[00:05:14] Jerry: Sure. This year when you're an aggressive officer out there, um, the criminals are not gonna necessarily like that about you. 

[00:05:21] Chris: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, but don't get me wrong. I was, I was fair to everybody for the most part. Unless you either A shoot at me or b spit on me that look one of those two, then you're, you're getting jacked up.

[00:05:31] Chris: But, So, 

[00:05:33] Jerry: yeah. What, what is it about people spitting on other people that are just like, that's just like the final straw? 

[00:05:39] Chris: It is, man. It's, oh my God. I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, I've been shout out enough times, but, you know, that's, that's bad enough. But that, that slap in the face of that massive, huge insults, especially.

[00:05:51] Chris: You know, close range. I mean, I've had plenty of people try and miss, but I've had a couple words like right up in your face, you know, and you're like, dude, oh man, that's, that's not okay. So, 

[00:06:01] Jerry: yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't like it either. I don't, I don't. It's, it's an interesting, probably some psychology behind that.

[00:06:09] Jerry: That's like what you're saying. The ultimate slap in the face for sure. So what was going on in Phoenix PD or just in. You know, that was causing like to lose so many fellow officers. 

[00:06:25] Chris: Well, with, with Arizona, people don't realize, a lot of people don't, because if you haven't been there, I mean, don't get me wrong, Arizona's a great place to live.

[00:06:31] Chris: It's, it's actually easy to live there. Um, you can be middle class and still survive. Unlike here in San Diego where you gotta be rich to survive for the most part. But Phoenix itself is a hub. So you've got, you know, you've got New Mexico and Mexico to the south and to the east, and then you've got Colorado and in Vegas and in LA and San Diego.

[00:06:53] Chris: And that's a great place for people to land and then disperse out. So we get a tremendous amount of cartel activity out there. And I came up with a theory on my own years ago that I think that, um, it's a, it's also like a test spot for, for new. So just like any place else, and I'm not, I'm not singling out my agency by any stretch, but you get these rash of officer involved shootings from time to time.

[00:07:17] Chris: And I think personally that it's a bad batch of dope moving through the valley that just makes people go nuts. And you see all this, this huge influx of crime all within like a four or five, six week period. And in it dies down for a while again and then it picks back up. And that was, that was a big problem.

[00:07:34] Chris: That I had to, to deal with because of the area that I worked in was so violent all the time. I mean, just really, really bad. So,

[00:07:42] Jerry: so there was a, a large cartel influence in, in the Phoenix area then. 

[00:07:49] Chris: Well, there's a, there's an intersection at, well, it's basically down in Maryvale, which is like Southwest, the Valley of Phoenix and it's 51st Avenue McDowell.

[00:07:57] Chris: And I've talked to multiple cartel guys that know that's the main intersection to go to, and they know that all the way, like in cartel country. So they all land in 51st McDowell and they didn't first off from there. And that happened to be my beat for about five years. I'm like, oh, great. So wow. 

[00:08:16] Jerry: Was your, so during this time, were you a regular straight cop or were you undercover or, 

[00:08:21] Chris: well, when I had a, had about a year on, I know it sounds really bad, I was already getting burned out from all the domestic violence calls and the accidents, which are the two most things I can't stand doing the most.

[00:08:32] Chris: Um, and I discovered this, this team called the Neighborhood Enforcement Team, the Net Squad, and they pretty much what they do. What I joke about is half undercover, half patrol, half plane clothes, and it's like a catchall proactive squad. And I discovered that squad about a year on, I'm like, oh, that's where I'm going.

[00:08:51] Chris: And it took me another three years to finally get there. And once I got there in oh two, I never left. I stayed there for the rest of my career cuz it was, it was a, just a blast. I mean, there were days I can be in, in a marked car chasing bad, guys. In an unmarked car, um, just doing surveillance or whatever, or I could be undercover, you know, buying dope and guns and all kinds of cool stuff.

[00:09:12] Chris: So this is awesome. 

[00:09:14] Jerry: Yeah. Sounds like a great position to get a lot of variety of. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Things going on and challenges and, 

[00:09:21] Chris: and you know, the great part was we could still answer the radio if we wanted to, but we weren't bound to it. So, um, it's, it is really bad and there's a lot of people are be like, yeah, that was you.

[00:09:29] Chris: Cuz I'd show up on a, on a really cool call. Get there and figure out that it really wasn't what I wanted to do. And then, you know, admittedly leave it for patrol to clean it up, you know? Cause I mean, you know, call it laziness or call it, you know, we've got something bigger going on or all that. Yeah. But crap, which isn't really true, but, you know, so 

[00:09:47] Jerry: could see how that could rub a few people wrong.

[00:09:49] Chris: It did. It did. But don't get me wrong. I mean, I was, I was a worker too, but some of the stuff that you. So I got into a lot of people were, were just curious. They like, dude, how did you find out? I'm like, because I'm a resident ship magnet. That's it. That's all I can tell you. You know, just kinda just lands in my left and I don't really know why.

[00:10:07] Chris: So 

[00:10:08] Jerry: what, what do you think made you good at your job? At like, you know, going after the cartel? 

[00:10:15] Chris: I think, um, I think a little bit of life experience. Cause I got hired on when I was 27, so I had already lived in several parts of the country, uh, had already run my own business by that point. Um, just a little bit older than the average.

[00:10:29] Chris: And I had a phenomenal F t o I mean the guy, um, He didn't teach me how to do accidents or write reports, but he taught me how to chase bad guys and hunt, and that's what I ended up being just really, really good at, honing my skills and figured out that man, if I, if I pay attention to the details, the smaller stuff, I can really benefit a lot and create a lot of carnage for the, for the criminal, you know, element.

[00:10:54] Chris: So I did. 

[00:10:56] Jerry: Yeah, I mean, do you kind of miss that hunt though still? 

[00:11:01] Chris: You know, after I retired, all, all I could think about was just getting away from it. And that's great. I was, I was watching, um, true Lies, believe it or not, about a year or two after I got out. And, uh, that scene where they're gearing up to raid the trailer, um, that gave me a flashback.

[00:11:17] Chris: I'm like, man, I, I do miss that part of getting all geared up with all the cool T gear and going to kicking doors and all that stuff. But the, the idea. You know, being in the mix all over again and dealing with the, the stressors and everything else, I'm like, nah. Yeah. I, I can't say I missed that part of it at all.

[00:11:34] Chris: So, yeah. Would you do it over again? I absolutely, totally would. Yeah. Only because I know that, um, Now with my, my thought processes, it was I'm saving the world externally chasing bad guys. And if I went back now, I'd be probably more saving the world internally to help other guys realize that, man, you could be like I was and just be a rockstar, kick ass chasing bad guys all day long and still getting knocked over.

[00:12:02] Chris: And it took me, it took me 18 years to figure that out. So, 

[00:12:07] Jerry: Yeah. What kind of things were going on internally? I, I mean, I can only imagine go with what you, what you're describing and what you've been through. Like there's gotta be a lot going on in there. 

[00:12:17] Chris: There's, there was a lot. So, um, I'll just really briefly just, you know, my first shooting, my first year on second shooting, second year on my first, uh, rifles shooting my 15th year on, which were actually pretty easy.

[00:12:29] Chris: They were, yeah, the target turned, raising fire two rounds. Wait for the pizzas. No big. Um, and all three of those, you know, the subject made the decision to, to try to assault or try to kill me. And I just, you know, I just won the day really wasn't, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, yeah, it's a big deal.

[00:12:45] Chris: But you know, when you realize that you're reacting to these things, Hey man, you made the choice, you lost, you know, and I say it kind of arrogantly. You picked on the wrong guy and you lost, you know, I'm not gonna apologize to that cause I gotta go home. Sure. But fast forward to 2016, um, started with me responding to a call.

[00:13:03] Chris: We actually had, um, switched over for patrol, cause patrol was shorthanded. We went out to help him out. And, um, February of 2016 started with me on patrol, responding to an eight year old that had just hanged himself. Dude, what fricking eight year old hangs himself, right. So, yeah, started with. And then I was doing a search warrant and there was a guy that was supposed to be arrested, but the guys that were running the scene when I went to write the search warrant didn't hook the dude up.

[00:13:30] Chris: And he got released several weeks later, a couple months later, um, he ends up killing three people because, um, he was a drug dealer gun guy, and he went down to another city down in South Arizona and did a drug rep and killed three. And had he been in jail on the charges that I wanted to be booked for, that wouldn't have happened.

[00:13:49] Chris: So I got that way into my conscience that same exact day. Two of my really good friends got into a wicked gun fight and both survived miraculously somehow, and I couldn't be there for them, you know, so I'm, I'm dealing with that whole thing. It's like, man, I wanna be there to help you guys out, but I can't, cause I've writing a search warrant and yeah.

[00:14:05] Chris: Blah, blah, blah. Um, and then fast forward to May 18th, 2016. Um, sister Squad, my buddy, uh, Dave Glasser killed in an ambush on a scene that I was the first one on. I was the first one there on that particular scene. Um, that's a whole, like a year long conversation in itself. But, um, so those other three things combined and now of a sudden you've got all this, all the stress stuff going on, and then Dave gets killed, you know, and now I've got an officer down.

[00:14:35] Chris: And that whole dynamic just pretty much sent me into a two year spiral. So the day that happened was technically the day that I checked out when I retired two years later was when I figured it out. That's how screwed up I was. So, 

[00:14:50] Jerry: I mean, it's a lot to go through.

[00:14:53] Chris: It was, yeah, it was. So, I mean, 

[00:14:57] Jerry: what advice, like what, what would you tell people like going through something like that.

[00:15:02] Chris: Well, it was, um, it was a stairstep process, um, because it was a lot of, when I first got out there, I was the first one there. I was watching the house by myself for 13 minutes and never saw where the guy was and the, you know, jump ahead, basically sitting inside a van. And when Dave rolled up with his partner, the guy opened the door and cranked off three rounds and killed.

[00:15:24] Chris: So then the survivor guilt, the survivor's guilt for just an officer getting killed. But then I get shot at three times and then I survive. So Dave gets shot at three times or killed. I get shot at three times and survive, and I'm out there 13 minutes watching the house, don't see where the guy's at. And then it's an ambush, you know, it's like, wait a second.

[00:15:42] Chris: 14 years of being on the net team, this is what you guys called me to do. I go down there and I'm scouting the house, I'm watching, give it out, Intel and everything else. And I don't know where the guy's at and. It ended up being, he was just hiding inside the van and just ambushed us. And I was like, holy shit.

[00:15:56] Chris: So I've gotta deal with that whole thing. And then, uh, you know, I, I had just previously moved outta my house with my now ex-wife, and so that's weighing on my mind. So when I went home after a 23 hour day, by the way, um, now I've got nobody to go home to, you know? So now for the next several months, it's pretty much just me sitting on the couch going.

[00:16:18] Chris: You know, how do I, how do I navigate through this? Yeah. But because I was such a, such a freaking pain in the ass, I thought that, you know, well, I've got a lot of experience. I know how to handle this kind of stuff. So I started creating my own triggers, what I thought they were gonna be when I got back on the street, which by the way, is a huge mistake because when I, when I finally did make it back to the street, the triggers when they came were nothing What I expected.

[00:16:43] Chris: So now I've gotta navigate past the ones that I thought they were gonna be into, the ones that they were, and then, and then kind of move forward from there. So, um, how, how to get through it is, is like a preemptive thing. You've gotta be prepared long before that, you know, you're never gonna know what, what kind of incident are you gonna react or respond Yeah.

[00:17:05] Chris: To, and then how are you gonna navigate through that particular thing, like, you know, it could be anything. And I tell people cause I do a lot of public speak. Um, and I show a picture of the dead guy from our scene, and I'm like, look, it doesn't have to be, this doesn't have to be a gun fight. It can be, you know, you pull the baby out of a pool, it can be a, a, like a really nasty car accident, eject or something like that.

[00:17:25] Chris: Um, where you see people all mangled up and you, you've gotta deal with it. You know, and having the mindset prior to, um, accepting that these things kind of happened from time to time. The chance of you stopping it is extremely unlikely. I mean, even if you weren't there, there's high, high improbability if you're gonna be able to be able to fix that problem.

[00:17:46] Chris: Yeah. Uh, so if you start preparing yourself mentally, I say, and then physically and then emotionally, and then I, I interject some spirituality into the whole thing too, because there's just no way you can deny. Certain things as far as I'm concerned. So I know that's a really, really long answer, but

[00:18:01] Jerry: No, no, no. It's a, it's a good answer. Um, I like that you brought in the, the spirituality, uh, portion of things. I mean, I, I could ex we can expand on all those things, but like, why'd you bring in sp spirituality? I mean, I, I can say for myself, right? I know what that means to me, but like when you go out and talk, like, what does that mean.

[00:18:24] Chris: Well, there's been several incidents that have, that have occurred. Um, a couple of my favorite ones are, so my girlfriend who helped me edit my book were down. I took her down to the scene because, you know, during the, during the book writing process, I wanted her to actually physically see where it was so she could have a better understanding of what it looked like.

[00:18:42] Chris: We got down there and she was kinda like a deer in the headlights, like very much like I was the first couple times. And, uh, while we're there, it's like a crazy windy day. Uh, unexplainable, you know, Phoenix is that way sometimes, you know, just like anyplace else. Of course. Yeah. And there's all these, you know, dirt and flowers and all kinds of stuff blowing all around where we were.

[00:19:02] Chris: And all of a sudden we were right where Dave had fallen and about six rose pedals flew out of nowhere and landed right where he fell and didn't move amongst all the other wind blowing all around And. That's, that's definitely a sign from God right there. Yeah. Or from Dave both. Yeah. Um, another time we're up at the, up at the cemetery.

[00:19:22] Chris: We're up there doing our, you know, when I'm back in Arizona, I always go to see, see Dave's grave site, and, uh, outta the blue, this blue piece of cloth comes blowing outta nowhere and lands right on Dave's grave. Site turned out to be a little blue heart. I'm like, oh, dude. I mean, come on. Even if you wanted to deny that, how could you, you know, Um, but the third most important one for me, you can see over my shoulder.

[00:19:47] Chris: I've got a, uh, a one-off Dave Grossman poster, who is one of my biggest heroes. Um, so my neighbor downstairs helped me move a couch one time or whatever else comes up and he sees my poster. He is walking in, he's like, Hey, Dave Grossman. I go, yeah, he, he's a big fan too. And so he goes, did you recognize the correlation between the king David Som, which Dave Grossman signed for me on my poster and David Glasser's Phoenix PD serial number, and I.

[00:20:11] Chris: Would've no idea what you're talking about. So basically he, he explains it much better than I do for the most part. Basically what it is, is the King David Psalm, if you're not familiar, is 1 44 dash one, and he asked, he goes, well, how many days did it take to make the heavens in the earth? And I said, well, you know, it's seven days, like the six days plus one day of rest.

[00:20:28] Chris: So there's your seven. So you add that seven plus one, and it's 1 44 dash one. Dave Glasser serial number was 81 40. And I'm, dude, I referred that to his first time. I'm like, I'm like, oh my God. You know? So I, I try to tell that story more eloquently when I get a chance in person. Sure. Um, but that's another one of those things where, you know, Dave was super, super spiritual and was truly willing to give up his life and did for us.

[00:20:54] Chris: And hearing some of the stories after I'm going, wow, there, there's just no way to, to deny it, man. There's just no way. And I know, I, I enjoy it. I, I take it on board and I, I notice the little things now like I never did before. So yeah. 

[00:21:09] Jerry: Maybe it's, you know, Dave's way of showing you he is still around and you know, it's okay.

[00:21:14] Jerry: And maybe trying to relieve some of that survivor's guilt. 

[00:21:19] Chris: I think that's exactly what it is. Not only that, I gotta, I gotta touch on this too. A friend of mine, my former boss, uh, we're riding back from the academy one day. Were doing a class down there or whatever, and uh, this is about a year after the shooting.

[00:21:29] Chris: And he's an extremely experienced guy as well. So he goes, Hey, just looks at me. I had the blue, you know, not talking about anything at all. In particular, he goes, do you think that, uh, after Dave was shot, uh, he stood up and said no more, and stopped at bullets from hitting anybody else and. Well, now I do.

[00:21:46] Chris: You know, I mean, and that's, I mean, I truly, now, now that he's kind of pointed that out, and don't get me wrong, it wasn't that I didn't think about it before, but when you. When you're so wrapped up in, in the emotional, you know, trauma of this whole thing, you really can't see outside your own, your own face pretty much.

[00:22:03] Chris: Yeah. Ah, so it takes other people to, to kind of guide you through certain things. And that was one of those big things. And I'm like, wow. Yeah, you know what? And that's what I truly believe now that, yeah, God had a hand in it as well, but I think Dave said Yep. No, what? Um, I mean, nobody else is gonna get hurt and thank God, because I can tell you, Those rounds that he fired at me, missed my head by centimeters, and I could feel and hear them going past my head.

[00:22:25] Chris: I'm like, okay, well, uh, how do you explain that? Right? I mean, there's no way except for just divine intervention that would've ever happened, so, but. 

[00:22:35] Jerry: Clearly you need to be around for something else. 

[00:22:38] Chris: I guess so, man, stuff like this and, you know, I say it all the time. Every single class I ever teach or my, my presentations or even in the book, you know, if I can, if I can help one, it's worth everything that I went through and answer your question again, I would go back through it again.

[00:22:53] Chris: If I could save one life, I would absolutely do it. So, yeah. 

[00:22:57] Jerry: Does, is there a way that you would, you would kind of approach . That saving one life or a way you approach it now? 

[00:23:04] Chris: Uh, in denial, like we do. Like, nah, man, that was, you know, I gave you some advice. That was your gun fight. You did it on your own, you know?

[00:23:12] Chris: Um, and because we're, you know, I try to be as humble as I can and it's like, I and I gave you a little bit of guidance and then you took it to the next level and whatever that is. And I, I hate even making the attempt to accept, you know, any kind of accolades for, for saving a life, whatever else, because I know.

[00:23:30] Chris: No matter what it is that you went through in your 30 years, or me and my 20, what if we were in the same gunfight together? You're gonna look at it differently than I did. Sure. You know, and whatever the results were, the, the outcome or what have you, um, you're gonna process that thing differently when you go home.

[00:23:46] Chris: You know, let's say as an example, you're going with your wife and your kids and you're happy and everything else. You're like, Hey, good to go. You know? And I go home to an empty house sitting on my couch going. Okay, so that's, that's gonna be a different process. So I try to just give folks a little bit of direction and then let them just run with it.

[00:24:04] Chris: So 

[00:24:05] Jerry: I'm, I'm glad you brought that up, cuz I, I'm like a huge perspective person. Like I, I know we're all coming from different perspectives in our lives, right? I mean, I've never walked in your shoes. You've, you've never really walked in mine. And so it's like we. See the same things and feel the same things exactly the same way.

[00:24:23] Jerry: And so I, I love that you, you bring that in cuz everybody's gonna see and feel differently and we, and we need to recognize that and accept that. 

[00:24:33] Chris: I agree a hundred percent. And not only that, I mean touch on some little bit of the negative side. I mean, there were very much like a lot of other big scenes like this, a lot of rumor mill going around about, you know, oh, you guys did this and you, you screwed that up.

[00:24:44] Chris: And I'm like, Okay. Stop the train here. Let's, let's back up. Let's not forget that we lost an officer here. I don't think now is the time to be trampling on our tactics and what you think we did wrong, because I can tell you that. In that four and a half second gun fight, there were so many things that I can't put back together.

[00:25:02] Chris: My brain just won't allow me to, to bring it back for whatever reason. Sure. You weren't there and you're gonna tell me what you think I did wrong. Gimme a break. I mean, I'm not gonna apologize because you're full of shit. I mean, when you get into a situation like that, come tell me how you would handle it.

[00:25:16] Chris: And it's gonna be different than what I did. And what I do is way different than what you might. Yeah, and I, it's one of my biggest pet peeves is I can't stand it when people are like, well, you know that, that freaking Hoyer guy, man, he, you know, he shot Dave in the back. That was the first rumor that I heard, dude, for real.

[00:25:32] Chris: I mean, you have no idea what really happened. And then the second rumor was that we walked around the van because we didn't check the van, and Dave was shot in the back. And I'm like, Guys, come on. That's not what happened. I mean, why are you making shit up that you have no idea, you know? So 

[00:25:48] Jerry: that is a fantastic question.

[00:25:50] Jerry: Why do people do that? 

[00:25:52] Chris: I, I think it's our nature. I think it's the cop culture on some level where, you know, Guy and then it may not be from an arrogant standpoint, it may just be because guys are just the way they are girls the way they are. They're like, you know, if I was there I would've done this and I would've done this.

[00:26:06] Chris: Yeah, but you weren't. So, you know, and then when, when guys, and I hate to say it this way, and it sounds incredibly arrogant and it's not meant to be at all. When you actually survive a major critical incident like that, then you can talk, then you can realize how bad shit goes and how quickly it goes bad.

[00:26:23] Chris: Then you can, then you can voice your opinion until you. I don't really wanna hear about it. I really don't. Because you weren't there, you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Keep doing so bad. I know, but 

[00:26:34] Jerry: no, and, and I, I get what you're saying. I mean, I think sometimes there's a way to like look at tactics, you know, to like improve yourself in, in the future, you know, to look at different things that happened and like try to maybe play it out in your head.

[00:26:47] Jerry: But I mean, I get it. I can't really judge what happened to another person cuz I wasn't there, you know, in, in your shoes. But I mean, it's a whole, also another thing to just go. And start rumors about things like that, that is like, so it's already a difficult situation and it's so damaging. 

[00:27:06] Chris: It is. It is. And this is 100% the time to be supportive, you know?

[00:27:10] Chris: I mean that's, yeah. Especially when you know you've lost an officer, or, I mean, even if it's, you know, I've got a really close friend of mine, she's super sweet. Um, she got to a pretty major critical incident where a guy that again, should have been doing his job wasn't, she went in. And found the guy hiding in the shower and got into a, just a knockdown drag out.

[00:27:30] Chris: Um, ended up having to kill the guy and she did everything exactly as she's supposed to, did it right. And she's still suffering from that whole thing. And people are like, you know, well you should have done this. And you, you know, dude, no, you weren't there. Okay. I wasn't there. You know, she leans on me from time to time and I'm like, look, I'm gonna just be as supportive as I possibly can to just guide her through.

[00:27:50] Chris: What little I do know about her situation, you know, and she explains it. And, you know, for me, I'm, I'm trying to hold it together and I'm like, okay. I, I understand the dynamic of what it's like to be in a gun fight and fighting for your life, you know? And when you come out of it, it is, I mean, it's an explosion of emotion.

[00:28:07] Chris: I mean, it just is. And trying to navigate through that by itself, combined with the fact that you took a life combined, the fact that you almost died, I mean, all these things factor into it. And. You've got guys over here going, oh, okay. But again, you weren't there, so leave me alone. You know? And that unfortunately, as you can see, the direction I'm going with that, what happens, you know, when we start getting that kind of feedback, we're gonna shut down.

[00:28:33] Chris: Yeah. You know, and then we start losing trust in our peers and then, you know, it can, that can stretch into the brass, you know, and then all of a sudden you don't wanna talk to anybody. And then that just starts leading you down a dark hole. It just does. Y 

[00:28:48] Jerry: Yeah. And, uh, who do you turn to when you're in that dark hole?

[00:28:52] Chris: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, 

[00:28:54] Jerry: hopefully, hopefully peer support or somebody like, but yes, I mean, takes a long time at times, 

[00:28:59] Chris: obviously. I mean, we know the big, the big problem with, you know, with saying something is the fear that we're gonna lose our jobs or we're gonna get our gun taken away, or we're gonna get put on the front desk, or all these kinds of things.

[00:29:11] Chris: I think a lot of agencies are coming around and starting to realize that, man, you, and this is how I say it, you know, you can't see the stuff that we see and expect to be okay. You know, you just can't. Sure. You know, in my case, you know, three shootings, one gunfight, my best friend loses his dog, Barry, 16 of my buddies.

[00:29:28] Chris: I mean, how can you expect me to walk around? Without any kind of something going on, you know, call it whatever you like. P T S P T S I P T S D, I don't care. Label it however it is. But the fact of it is that you're struggling, you know? And how do you fix that and how do you trust people to help you to fix that?

[00:29:46] Chris: And that's, that's a million dollar question. So, 

[00:29:48] Jerry: yeah. And I guess just to ask you a question, How have you, like I get, I mean, probably seen fixed it, right? That's probably an ongoing day-to-day process, but how have you gone to seek help and in the process of fixing things? 

[00:30:07] Chris: Well, I'll tell you what, of course, you know, I wanna see the city psychiatrist twice, which is standard protocol.

[00:30:12] Chris: Um, Phoenix adopted a, a policy out of, I wanna say it was Connecticut or someplace on the East Coast where. You, you get involved some kind of major critical incident, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be a shooting or gun fight or whatever else can be, you know, again, you pull a baby out of a pool that's, that's traumatic.

[00:30:28] Chris: It is, yeah. What they do is they send you someplace for 30 days, you know, to, to recover and, and so forth. And in that timeframe, um, what they want from you is to just, you know, take a step back, release yourself from, from your other stuff and whatever else. And that's, that's a great plan. I love it. I absolutely do.

[00:30:48] Chris: The problem is that sometimes they're not being very objective about it because they're gonna send you down to assaults to be an assaults detective for 30 days. Okay. Which is, which is kind of neat. On some levels that's what you want to do. But if you're not a detective like me, I, I know I'm a fault investigator.

[00:31:05] Chris: I'm great at catching him. Like, yeah. So, um, but if you know, not only that, if you end up someplace that you're not comfortable being, and now you're hanging out with a bunch of people, like in our case with Dave Glasser. A lot of my buddies that got sent down to our headquarters and now what their job is, is to move furniture and help build offices and stuff like that.

[00:31:23] Chris: It's like, that's not what I'm here for. You know? And I mean, yeah. So in addition to that, you've got people that you know like, Hey, hey, what happened? What happened? What happened? What happened? Dude, I don't, no offense, I don't know you. I don't really wanna talk about this with you. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. And then on the, on the shift side of the other side of the things you look at, you know, now you're away from your 40 hour family, these guys that you spend all your time with, you know, and I know you know this, when you look in that guy's eyes and you're getting make, getting ready to make that traffic stop, you're like, this could be the last time we ever talked to each other kind of a thing.

[00:31:53] Chris: And no, that's important. So you're losing that, you know, that 30 days at least minimum of being with your guys. Yeah. You know, and I don't want you hanging around with those guys cuz for whatever their, their political reasons are. I call it. Um, and like, so when, in my, my case, what I did was I just went home and I, I hopped on my motorcycle and went for rides.

[00:32:13] Chris: That was how I fixed myself, if you will. Which was, which was a great start. It was, yeah. The problem was, it was a failure because what I would end up doing was I'd get on the bike and I would go, you know, I'd go up to Northern Arizona and have just a blast, you know, I could do, I had all this free time to just play and do all this great stuff, and what I was doing was putting everything on the back burn.

[00:32:35] Chris: When I got home, it was all still there. Yeah. And so what I started to realize was when I'm on my rise, even though it wasn't really the, probably the safest way to do it, I'd, I'd have like a notepad and I'd pull off on the side of the road, on the freeway, you know, cars zipping by 90 miles an hour or whatever.

[00:32:51] Chris: Uh, I, and I'd stop and I would write down questions that only, um, that came up at whatever particular time. And I would have those things and I would later go back and I'd read it again. And then I would ask somebody else that I would trust and go, Hey, help me with this question right here. What do you think?

[00:33:07] Chris: And call me out on my bullshit or whatever else. And that was a good way to, to process through stuff. And it, you know, it released it on some level. And I also got some pretty good answers about stuff that, you know, I was in denial about. Cause I was flat out and I'm like, no, I'm good. You know, I'm my chest.

[00:33:23] Chris: You know. And it was, you know, like we talked about earlier, it's like Christopher, you know, come. You know, and this is this and this and this and this, and you know, you're in denial and you need help. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm fine. Bullshit. You're not fine. Finally, accept the fact that you need some, whatever it is, call it, help, call it guidance, call it psychiatric, you know, whatever.

[00:33:46] Chris: Just, just taking on board and realize it's like, man, again, you can't see what we see every single day and expect to be. And I'm not even talking about, you know, when you're, if you work second or third shift and you, you get home at six o'clock in the morning and you gotta be in court at eight or nine or whatever, it's like, man, I get zero sleep.

[00:34:04] Chris: Now I gotta go to court, sit in court for four hours to realize that the case got freaking canceled or it took a plea or whatever else. And you're like, dude, no. You go home and your wife's like, Hey, I gotta, we gotta go to Walmart. Kids need homework. Hey, I need, you know, fix the, fix the shower door. Okay.

[00:34:19] Chris: And all these other stressors that are building and building. Sure. And so you, you gotta have that release from time to time and just get away from this profession if you can from time to time, which is another conversation. So, okay. After, well, let's start a weekly series here with Chris. It is. I know, right?

[00:34:38] Chris: I got a lot to talk about. So, yeah. 

[00:34:40] Jerry: I mean, this is all great. Like I, I, I totally get what you're saying and I think it's, we. We expect everybody to be at their best. And then just like in this scenario, like we were just talking about, you know, like get home from work and then I gotta go to court and then I got to, you know, family things in and stuff like that.

[00:34:57] Jerry: Oh, by the way, and then you gotta work tonight. So catch a couple hours of sleep, go out on the street and be a 

[00:35:03] Chris: great cop. Be perfect across the board. Yeah. Oh 

[00:35:07] Jerry: yeah. 

[00:35:07] Chris: Not great, but yeah. Be perfect. Yeah, let's, oh, yeah. Yeah. And then you figure out that you got manpower allocation and three guys called in, you know, for whatever reason.

[00:35:14] Chris: Now you got four guys to cover, you know, a 20 mile area or whatever it happens to be. Yeah. You know, it's great. And then you're like, on a Friday night in Phoenix, you're looking at 70 or 80 fricking p2 calls, you know, priority twos, you know, and it's like you don't have time to even go take a, take a drink or whatever else.

[00:35:31] Chris: Yeah. If you're called to call, to call, to call, you know, Yeah, so I, 

[00:35:36] Jerry: I bet when you think about that for a second, right there, you probably thought it's good to be retired. 

[00:35:41] Chris: It's, I'm not gonna laugh. Greatest thing I ever did is coming up on five years and I'm, I'm obviously very, very much still connected in law enforcement, community on purpose because of, you know, we talked about I want to help other folks out.

[00:35:54] Chris: Um, in fact, I, there. Fairly good chance I'm gonna go with, uh, San Diego Sheriffs and be a volunteer and just be one of those old guys driving around in a, in a car, you know, writing parking tickets and stuff like that or whatever. Oh man, I 

[00:36:09] Jerry: can't wait to hear how this 

[00:36:10] Chris: is gonna end up. Oh my goodness. Well, when I, uh, when I retired, I knew that I was, I was gonna stay in the community on some level.

[00:36:18] Chris: In fact, I started testing for agencies out here only to find out. In California, which of course not anybody's gonna be surprised. Um, they're all jacked up and they want to send me back to the academy for six months, and I'm like, I've got like 14 instructor ships under my belt. I got well over 20 years experience, you know, not combined with just my, my on time with the, with the agency.

[00:36:40] Chris: But since I've retired as well, all the stuff that I've, I've done as instructors and all this other kind of stuff and other agencies and stuff like that, it. Why would you, I mean, you got a guy that's that's stupid enough to wanna go back after, after getting up in one piece and got all this experience and all these things under his belt that he teaches.

[00:37:00] Chris: I don't need to go back and learn how to handcuff people and write reports. I teach that stuff. Yeah. And so I'm, I finally, it was obviously a, a sign going and maybe New York time has passed. Maybe you should just stick with what you're doing. So I ended up just dropping outta that whole, that whole thing.

[00:37:14] Jerry: I mean, you're still, you're still serving just in a, in a, in a different way, which is still very valuable. 

[00:37:20] Chris: Right. That's what I'm, that's what I'm hoping anyways, so, you know, so, um, 

[00:37:23] Jerry: well, let's dive down into your book. Let's talk about, let's talk about how you came up with the name and then let's dive down into the book.

[00:37:32] Chris: It was, uh, right around September, 2017. So Dave was killed in May, 2016. I navigated through most of that whole thing, and, and part of my healing process was, Because I knew that,

[00:37:49] Chris: obviously, again, I could talk, I mean, I'll, I'll talk about stuff and I joke about anybody's willing to listen to me. I'll talk to him, you know, kinda a thing. So dawned on me that back in 97 when I was in the academy, we had another guy from another agency come in and talk about his, his shooting that he got involved with.

[00:38:03] Chris: And at the time I'm like, ah, that don't happen. Hell, whatever man. We're we're cops. Nobody's gonna mess with us. You know, being completely naive and green, and then realizing how much impact that story had on me later, after all my critical incidents that I had. And I recognized, and I'm like, man, other people need to hear my version of what happened to me specifically.

[00:38:24] Chris: And so I started going down to the academy and talking about it, um, to some of the recruit classes and stuff like that. And that was, that was really, really good for me. Uh, it was great, but it wasn't enough and I, and I recognized that, and I only had so many opportunities to speak. You know, I'm a, even though I've been doing it now for coming up on seven years, I, I still consider myself an amateur speaker.

[00:38:46] Chris: I wanted to do more of it, and I wanted to get my story out there. I just didn't know how to do it. One day in September, 2017, I just shoot up outta bed at like two o'clock in the morning, just got completely inspired, got on my laptop and just started pounding the keys. And over a thousand pages later, at about a year or so, it was, it was pretty much done.

[00:39:08] Chris: And I'm looking at it going, you know, at the time, uh, I had met my, my now girlfriend and. We were doing some training together, as it turned out at the, uh, at the airport with Phoenix. And, um, she was one of those people, she's a huge community. She's never been a cop else, but her son's a deputy out in Texas.

[00:39:27] Chris: Um, she just got a huge affinity for, for the law enforcement and veteran community. So she volunteers her time, took a shot up by the SWAT guys and stuff like that. So this particular one we're down there. I'm like, Hey, I got this book I wanna send you. And she's like, what's your name again? Kind of a thing.

[00:39:42] Chris: So, um, I don't remember when I did the title, but I knew that, um, when I did, you know, when that day comes training for the fight, it was, it just mirrored my career because I knew that day was gonna come and how do I prepare for it, you know? And luckily I said I had a phenomenal f t O that prepared me for the fight.

[00:40:06] Chris: Um, but that was more on the physical side, the mental. Emotional and spiritual side came later. So 

[00:40:15] Jerry: yeah. Any like key pieces of that book that you wanna like divulge? So, so readers are being intrigued 

[00:40:21] Chris: to read that? Well, uh, I'm not gonna lie, and one of my biggest plugs ever was a, uh, I've read out to Dave Grossman for my second edition and.

[00:40:33] Chris: Again, he's one of my biggest heroes. I'm like, Hey, you know, take a look at it, see what you think. And I wasn't planning on doing anything with it, just I wanted him to just get ahold of it and just read it for me, you know? And kind of quietly I'm like, Hey, by the way, if you happen to want to do it forward for me, you know, kinda one of these things.

[00:40:50] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. So about three or four days later, and I mean, just the fact that he responded to me at all is just huge. I'm like, dude, you're, you're Dave Grossman. I mean, I first saw him in oh three. Sat down with in 2017, um, right around the same time the book being, being started, and. Just, I mean, just got a huge love for the guy for a long, a long list of reasons.

[00:41:10] Chris: But, um, he responds back and he goes, well, no promises, you know, let me take a look at it and I'll get back you kind of a thing. And it was about a week to the day later, he comes back and I don't have his email sitting in front of me. Basically it says something to the effect of Chris, wow. Just wow.

[00:41:27] Chris: Greatest law enforcement prep book I've ever read. I. That's a bunch of shit, dude. Whatever. That's, I mean, cuz I know me, I'm still just, you know, I'm as knuckle Dragon Street cop, a guy like, like Brandon says, you know, Brandon Griffith, your other buddy. Um, but, uh, when he came back with that forward, I, I just couldn't believe it.

[00:41:43] Chris: I'm like, holy cow. And then I, when I started going back and, uh, I got the thing on audiobook as well, I started listening to it and, It was, I've been, I've been told by several of my friends that you know, now that they know me, if they've had several conversations with me that when they read the book, it's almost like I'm reading it to 'em, which is like, how'd that happen?

[00:42:04] Chris: Holy. I mean, I'm not a writer. I don't know anything about writing books. All I do is just write down my thoughts. And it turned into the saying. And Natalie, my girlfriend, did it to where she made it easy for cops to. I know you've seen these books, you get on, you're like, oh my God, I can't even see that The Prince is small.

[00:42:19] Chris: Right? So she made it nice and big for us and for the Marine Corps listeners. You know, I got some crayons in there, in the bag. Um, but, uh, so it was basically a, a compilation of my entire career. And it wasn't just the, the critical incidents survival stuff and the survivor's guilt and all that other stuff.

[00:42:39] Chris: It was a little bit of my, my bio, my autobiography, my growing up time, and. The, the fact that I was, you know, a poster child for Oprah, you know, kind of a thing the way I was, I was raised, you know, I was like, oh my God. I mean, I've, I've got a story there too, which is, it is kind of funny on some, some different level.

[00:42:57] Chris: But then it was also like, you know, how do you prepare for, just the hiring process alone was a disaster for me because, and it was by design, which I know, which I figured out later. And I explained that to folks. I'm like, Getting hired on is an entire process all by itself. And then you go through the academy, that's an entire process, and you go through fto, that's an entire process and by the time you get done with all that and you got freaking Joe shit to rag man screaming at you over here, you're like, you know, all this hiring trouble that I had to go through, all the academy trouble.

[00:43:30] Chris: I had to go through all my field training. Had to go through now. This is all easy over here, and that's obviously by design. You're like, wow. Yeah. Who knew, right? So yeah. By design. Yeah. Yeah. Kinda getting off track with that whole No, you're good. You're good. 

[00:43:42] Jerry: I mean, like, would you recommend this to people looking to get into law enforcement or people that are in law enforcement or 

[00:43:50] Chris: like, who's this book for?

[00:43:52] Chris: It's for everybody. Um, it is definitely a law enforcement related book, but it's also very applicable to just general life as, as well. Um, cause I do talk about, um, again, the hiring process, getting through. So for the younger kids that don't know, and once they start getting into it, they're like, oh, this is great stuff.

[00:44:09] Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they start realizing that's like, well, this comes. With a toll, you know? Yeah. And so you got the, the pre-hire types guys, and then you got the guys that are, cuz I talk about my, my failures in the academy. So you got guys that are in the academy and now realize that you, I'm a, I'm a professional and I need to maintain that professionalism on several different levels.

[00:44:29] Chris: So that's that part. And then you got guys that have been on for a year to five years or 10 or whatever it is, and they're starting to get that burnout. And, cause I know you had Chris Chan with liaison here as well. Yeah. Talking about burnout and then you get to that stage. I'll talk about how I navigated through some of that and my, I think it was my 13th year and I'm like, I'm just done man.

[00:44:47] Chris: I'm just bored. Brand new car. Awesome. One of my best partners I ever had and a brand new rifle. And I was, I was completely unmotivated. I'm like, man, whatever. But I got it back. Talk about that. And then also for guys that have been through critical incidents, how I navigated through. You know, going to Washington, DC for police week and all that kind of stuff, and what that looked like.

[00:45:08] Chris: And then for after retirement, what it looks like when you lose your identity, when you realize that, man, I, I don't have the badge and gun anymore. I can't chase bad guys. You know? And in fact, I was, I was at an eye appointment yesterday and I was explaining to one of the ladies, she's like, well, how do you feel now that you're retired?

[00:45:24] Chris: I said, well, on some level, when I was there, people didn't care that I was in. And no, don't get me wrong there, level of respect there on, on most levels, but you know, you gotta, that's in a negative light, if you will. That's how a lot of cops think. Like, oh, this negative shit, you know, nobody cares kind of a thing.

[00:45:43] Chris: And then when you retire, It's like, well, really, nobody cares now because you got no authority whatsoever and you start to lose some of that identity. And you're like, but you know why? Why do I care now? I mean, I did my time. I came out in one piece, got on my fingers and toes. Okay? So I'm a little bit mentally screwed up, but I, that can be easily fixed if you want to be.

[00:46:05] Chris: And I talk about how you can do that and it's not, It's not rocket science, and believe me when I tell you, I, I made it through and now living the best life ever. You know, I mean, it's, it's, it's really not that difficult. It really isn't. So, I love 

[00:46:20] Jerry: that. That seems to cover pretty much everything someone would need in really in any career, right?

[00:46:26] Jerry: Because you're gonna go through those, those phases and those difficult challenges and things, right? No matter what career you have, like, and I feel like that 13th year mark, there's a lot of shit that happens. 

[00:46:39] Chris: Yeah. Oh yeah. Big time. And. It, it sounds heavy and a lot of it is, don't me wrong, um, but there are a lot of funny stories in there too about stuff that you were like, what?

[00:46:48] Chris: Oh my God, how did that happen? You know? I mean, like the time I dropped my gun in front of a bad guy, you know? And yeah, it was like a nobody else saw that. Thank God. You know, it turned to be a pretty funny story. Um, you know, the time I got headbutted by one of my buddies on another squad who ended up being a former Texas Rangers baseball player, and he's a monster and accused me of having a hard head.

[00:47:09] Chris: I. You're like nine feet tall. I mean, you practically killed me. What are you talking about? So there's some funny stuff on here too. So it's not all just blood and guts and Oh my God, oh whoa, is me type stuff. Um, it is, it's, it's pretty entertaining overall, so That's awesome. 

[00:47:24] Jerry: Chris, where can, so where can people find your, you and, and follow you and then also 

[00:47:29] Chris: your book?

[00:47:31] Chris: Well, I do have a website. It's up and running. Uh, it's still under construction on some level. Um, So you can find a few things on there. There is a way you can actually purchase the book through the website as well itself. Um, but it's also on Amazon, Kindle and, um, audible or audiobook or whatever the new one is, is today.

[00:47:48] Chris: So, um, and you're welcome to drop my email in there if people wanna reach out to me through email. I also, I travel the country to speak, um, all over and tell my story and I show. It's, it's a full 360 degrees of here's a hiring process, here's what a critical incident looks like, here's how I navigated through it, and here's how I, how I look at the end.

[00:48:10] Chris: And um, so I'll go anywhere for that. And I, I try to be as generous as I can with, with fees, you know? Um, but, um, and then if, you know, agencies want me to just come in and just, just have a conversation with some of their guys or whatever else, and. You know, I, I joke that I'm a, I'm a great shoulder, I'm a great punching bag, or I'm a great ear.

[00:48:31] Chris: Any one of those three. And, um, I've had a, I've had a handful of guys that wanna reach out and just be like, Hey dude, you know, What do you think about this? And I just give 'em my tiny little piece of advice and just send 'em on their way. And, you know, four or five or six months later, like, yeah man, that was really great stuff.

[00:48:45] Chris: Thank you, thank you. Whatever else. Or on the other side of the coin, which I love hearing too, is that, you know, I love what you said, I don't like it. I'm gonna go another direction. Great. Cool. At least I've got you starting someplace and, and taking a direction with whatever It's, whatever it's gonna be for you.

[00:48:59] Chris: So yeah. 

[00:49:00] Jerry: What's, so what's the name 

[00:49:02] Chris: of the website? It's called Training for the Fight Dot. Shocker there. Yeah, 

[00:49:10] Jerry: gotta get that in there. And then on social media. 

[00:49:14] Chris: Social media, I'm on, um, I think I'm under, it's either just Chris or Christopher under Facebook. Personal last name. Um, I've got two different platforms for that.

[00:49:23] Chris: You can see me. I got a picture of myself, my girlfriend in the background.

[00:49:30] Chris: And I got my, also my back in the bedroom yelling to me. I got my training for the flight Facebook count as well. I'm on Instagram as well. That's last name first and then Chris, and then my first name. And then I'm also on LinkedIn of course, uh, which is where I do most of my professional stuff, so.

[00:49:46] Jerry: Awesome. Chris is so great having you on today. I am excited for the book. I personally haven't listened to it yet, but I'm going to like and download that and listen to it cuz I think that's applicable in, in all, in all of our lives and I'm looking forward to that. Are you the reader in the. No. 

[00:50:05] Chris: God no. 

[00:50:06] Jerry: I like man, that would be awesome.

[00:50:08] Jerry: Cause I don't know anybody in law enforcement, first responder world that would take that on, but it would be so cool. Yeah, 

[00:50:13] Chris: that's actually kinda a funny story too. Cause I know being the guy that does the Southwest Airlines stuff and. Dramatic pause. He's also the Dunking Donut spokesman. So cool. Not booked, done by the Dunking Donuts guys.

[00:50:26] Chris: There you go. I mean, perfect for the first responder world. Yeah, of course. I don't say that in the, in the story, but the people that listen to this will hear that. Um, he did a phenomenal job. Um, It's a little bit confusing. I gotta, I gotta touch on this really quick. So the, my first version of the book is in, is in Amazon.

[00:50:46] Chris: The second one is in there as well. But you've got, if you want to get to the second version, which has got four new chapters, and Dave Grossman's forward, you just gotta scroll down a little bit further. In addition to that, the, the Forward is in the audible, but the four new chapters are not. I know, it's kind of crazy because we were, okay.

[00:51:04] Chris: I was in the middle of New book when we finished with the audible portion. So the four new chapters didn't make it in there in time. That's why they're not there. So. Gotcha. But if you scroll down, you can see Dave Grossman's name across the front of the cover of the book. That's, that's the one you want really more than anything.

[00:51:17] Chris: Um, but, uh, you can still get the old one. And not only that, I'm, I love, it's really, really strange. I. Mailing copies out, you know, and I'll sign 'em for, for folks, which is really strange. I. Okay. How did this happen? You know, you know, all of a sudden now I'm this published author, I'm like, what is that? I mean, you know, my, my whole career is chasing bad guys.

[00:51:38] Chris: But, you know, it is what it is. And it's a, it's a huge honor to be able to, to have that in my hand now and go, oh my God, you know, and hand it out to other guys and go, yeah, dude, I loved it. I hate it. I hate you for making me read it, or whatever else. And I, I love all the feedback. I really do. So 

[00:51:54] Jerry: well, I mean, I've had several different authors on, and uh, you are definitely in the top of those.

[00:52:03] Jerry: Um, sometimes I'm like, you're an author. You sh should be like really great at telling stories and have some great stories, but some people are a little bit better and put it on, you know, paper, but, Clearly you're a guy who can do it on paper and both, you know, 

[00:52:18] Chris: on the podcast. So appreciate that. It still still sounds kind of strange to me, but yeah, that's, that's the feedback I'm, I'm getting, which is great.

[00:52:25] Chris: And Okay, I'll, I'm gonna take it on board, so, yeah. 

[00:52:29] Jerry: Well, thanks again. I really appreciate your time, Chris. 

[00:52:32] Chris: Absolutely. Thank you. And uh, hey, next time if you wanna come back for a second round, I got a whole lot more to talk about, so I, 

[00:52:38] Jerry: I will take you up on that for sure. 

[00:52:41] Chris: All right. Thanks Jerry. Appreciate it, man.

[00:52:42] Jerry: Yeah, thank you. 

[00:52:44] Jerry: Thanks again for listening. Don't forget to rate and review the show wherever you access your podcast. If you know someone that would be great on the show, please get a hold of our host, Jerry Dean Lund, through the Instagram handles at 

[00:53:01] Jerry: Jerry's fire and fuel at Enduring The Badge Podcast also by visiting the show's website.

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